Somewhat dissapointed

[mthrockmor]

Great lessons learned.

1) SITREP, or situation report is everything.
2) Defending is almost impossible.
3) Mass is everything.

What I would do different is first consider likely avenues of attack. Second reconnoiter/scout as far out front as possible, find them two sectors away if possible. Third, once you've found them delay attack while you mass all as many of your birds as possible. Fourth, hit them from the side a full sector plus away. Hitting from the side allows speed differential and enables you relatively rapid re-engegment. During the attack blow through the 109s and disrupt the 190s. Use your speed by slashing attacks. Get them to drop altitude and speed. Turn their 109s into 'out of position' tourists, trying to catch you as you chase down heavy 190s.

Anything else means you will meet their mass with splinter attacks most likely over the field.

In any case, this is what we learned to incredibly effect during the Battle Over Germany when we thrashed the crap out of the attackers. Just my two cents.

Offense is always the best defense.

Boo

[surfinn]

Great suggestion

While it may have been an equal amount of fighters in the sector every encounter I saw was 4 to 5 allied ac getting stomped by all the 190s at once. I and one other Pilot were the only survivors of the first encounter. I shot up 6 190s but not a one went down good job to the three 190 squads there, your coordination was incredible to watch.

I have a couple of constructive suggestions to make for future FSO.

Defending fighter squads could fly together in mass
Squad leaders of the fighter squads could have a separate channel to communicate with, this seamed to work really well in the B.O.G.
A predetermined rally point for all survivors.

Still a great time though any way you look at it  to all

[Molsman]

Surfinn nice attempt budy was just lucky enough to out roll ya 

[surfinn]

Great screen shoot. 

[Viper61]

Interesting read throughout with many good post's by quiet a few.  My personnel opinion is that the 325th VFG ran into 3 really good squads attacking in a coordinated attack and it worked for them nicely.  Simply put and I'm in the 325th VFG.

All fun aside in the FSO and they are all fun in there own ways.  This FSO set up isn't exactly right and I would hope that the CM's would adjust the next time it is used (probably a year from now).  I haven't seen the points yet but I have looked at the logs for all 3 frames and the ALLIES got hammered 3 out of 3 frames.  Not close but hammered, look at the kill ratio's and objects destroyed.  Not looking for a historical match up because that's NOT what the FSO is about.  But when working correctly it should be even enough to come out nearly a draw each time.  So either the match up isn't right (numbers or AC used) or all of the really good squads ended up on one side.

When one frame goes wildly to one side you can usually chalk it up to:  One side having a bad turn out or a really good plan upending the others.  When you have 3 out 3 frames go to one side then you have to look at the setup in my opinion.

The FSO is a great time and i really appreciate what all of the CM's do <S>  Just asking that the CM's review this scenario and make adjustments before its next use.

<S> to the AXIS side.  A very good scenario for you all.

[Softail]

What was interesting about the attack in question...is how closely it mirrored the Allied attack against A41 last week.    We had about 15-17 defenders...all 109s.   The first attack came in at 6K by 10 P47s.....we arrived at the base just as they were on egressing from their attack..we dispatched most of them...10 minutes later 3 P38's dove in from about 11-13K  we had recovered to about 11k ourselves and dispatched two of those 38's.    Seeing a HUGE dar bar 75+ miles away...we rearmed/refueld then started climbing.....~20 mins later we encounterd 10 P-51's diving in on 41 from 25K....we destroyed a good number of them...the ones we could catch.   Not a one of the attackers hung around to fight...they just dove in...dropped ord and egressed.   Given the speed advantage of the allied aircraft....a very sound plan...I'm sure they were planning on re-arm/re-fuel and come back for a second pass since the first attack was about T+21 in frame.   They never did.

So with 15-17 defenders we were attacked by 23 allied aircraft from 3 different altitudes and 3 different directions.    A41 recieved nominal damage and we racked up a good number of kills.    The only difference from what YOU experienced.....Timing.   Had all three units attacked at the same time...we would have been overwhelmed and probably suffered significant losses.   But the timing was such we could rearm and refuel and recover alt between attacks.   In military attacks and comedy....Timing....is critical. 

AKSofty.

[Shifty]

What was interesting about the attack in question...is how closely it mirrored the Allied attack against A41 last week.    We had about 15-17 defenders...all 109s.   The first attack came in at 6K by 10 P47s.....we arrived at the base just as they were on egressing from their attack..we dispatched most of them...10 minutes later 3 P38's dove in from about 11-13K  we had recovered to about 11k ourselves and dispatched two of those 38's.    Seeing a HUGE dar bar 75+ miles away...we rearmed/refueld then started climbing.....~20 mins later we encounterd 10 P-51's diving in on 41 from 25K....we destroyed a good number of them...the ones we could catch.   Not a one of the attackers hung around to fight...they just dove in...dropped ord and egressed.   Given the speed advantage of the allied aircraft....a very sound plan...I'm sure they were planning on re-arm/re-fuel and come back for a second pass since the first attack was about T+21 in frame.   They never did.

So with 15-17 defenders we were attacked by 23 allied aircraft from 3 different altitudes and 3 different directions.    A41 recieved nominal damage and we racked up a good number of kills.    The only difference from what YOU experienced.....Timing.   Had all three units attacked at the same time...we would have been overwhelmed and probably suffered significant losses.   But the timing was such we could rearm and refuel and recover alt between attacks.   In military attacks and comedy....Timing....is critical. 

AKSofty.

No offense but your experiance doesn't mirror what happened at A73 at all. Except maybe in numbers of aircraft. The Lufties came in with an aggresive sweep ahead of the strike force. They concentrated on one thing engaging and destroying the CAP. They did a great job of it. By the time the jabos arrive there was very little resistance if any left. What you described happened to us in frames 1 and 2 small pockets of attackers coming in at seperate times and paying the price for it. What happened at A73 Friday was nothing close to that. They pretty much put on a clinic and those of us on the losing end of it would do well to remember the lesson.

[Softail]

None taken.

Upon re-reading your post...I would say the fault lies with the deployment of your aircraft.   Breaking 17 AC up in to 4-5 wings  to defend a known attack is a bit "different"    If you "did" want to break up that force...8 + 8 on reciprocating racetracks at alt would have probably worked better....use the extra 1 AC as an advanced scout at mid-alt in the most "Probable" sector where the enemy ingress is expected.    I wouldn't fault a CIC for a CO's decision to split up his forces.

This week 10 of us ran into what we believe was a Fighter sweep for A38....only 3 AC returned from that encounter...1 heavily damaged and 2 in good working order after slugging it out about 2:1 against 51's and 38's that had alt.   The good news was that we scored some kills and the Jabo group we were escorting got away clean and hit the CV group ...decimating it. ;-)

In the end we follow our CO's good or bad we pay the virtual price  and hope it works out.      It is probably the most accurate thing in the FSO as to "real" WWII experience.       

   To you...and see you in February!

[M0nkey_Man]

   One thing I noticed over 73 was that the Allies got very spread out fast.
After the 1st 5 minutes I only saw 2 groups with at least 3 planes. Everything else was spread to hell and back.
Our 190s managed to stay together(except for me and Ace )and eliminate those small pockets.
If the Allied fighters had kept their alt and stayed together, that fight might of turned out differently.
  

[VonMessa]

Well coordinated squads, flying their favorite rides, using proper planning and wingman tactics is hard to counter.

It only appeared that there were 100 planes 

Prior
Proper
Planning
Prevents
Piss
Poor
Performance

[M0nkey_Man]

Well coordinated squads, flying their favorite rides, using proper planning and wingman tactics is hard to counter.

It only appeared that there were 100 planes 

Prior
Proper
Planning
Prevents
Piss
Poor
Performance

[Stampf]

Interesting read throughout with many good post's by quiet a few.  My personnel opinion is that the 325th VFG ran into 3 really good squads attacking in a coordinated attack and it worked for them nicely.  Simply put and I'm in the 325th VFG.

Spot on, as has been Shifty's account.  Viper you are one of, if not the best strike planner I have ever had the pleasure to operate with.  You understand that the essence of Friday Squad Ops...is...Squad ops.  And believe me, our plan was simple, Nothing like the time and work you put into a strike.  In fact it took no longer than 2 minutes to discuss with the units involved.  The important part is that we did discuss the mission, had a simple plan, communicated sitrep throughout the flight, and worked together to accomplish it.  Experience is a tough teacher.  I knew I could unleash KN, and 9GIAP on a free sweep and chances were they would get the job done.  We've all spent allot of Friday nights flying with and against eachother.  All I had to do was keep the strikers free and clean, and be Johny on the spot, when it counted.

Of course it wasn't simple.  At one point it looked like a tough CAP was waiting high to meet the sweep, and the strike group had to evade numerous patrols, and allied pirates on the way to target.  They were all around us on the way in.

In the event, our timing was perfect, and of course luck plays into that as well, on every sortie.

The guys who mentioned this thread as a positive learning experience are correct, and more AAR type discussions would be a good thing for everyone flying in here.  I am sure the OP now has a bit of a different view of the actual events that took place over A73, and hopefully has seen a larger picture.  It's not the CIC's job to get his units to work together.  That's falls upon all of us, as pilots in his kommand.  The CIC gives us what he/she can to operate with, and a mission to accomplish.  Even with detailed instructions and flight plans from a CIC, without teamwork, discipline, and communication, success will be hard to find.  Every outcome up there, good and bad, is a result of a decision we make ourselves.

It only appeared that there were 100 planes 

Dantoo always looks like 100 planes to me.

 

[Krusty]

I've often found in the past that defense is so hard because defenders are hamstrung, so to speak. Not only are massive numbers thrown at small numbers of defenders, but often in large hordes. Even if the defenders are in the right place at the right time, the bombs get through to the target simply be sheer volume. If you punish them by shooting them down after they all drop, you cannot make up for the points you lost by losing your hangars/whatever.

Now, I'll admit I've been on the attacking end where we had some 6 planes going against 30 defenders... That sucks just as much.

As a thought: It would probably help if enemy dar bar was enabled for both sides. And not some 5-minute "they're already 2 sectors away" delay, but a reasonable 30 seconds delay or less. Above 28K is instant dot dar for all sides. This would help provide some info such as where the massive forces might be, so smaller defenders can reach out and intercept them BEFORE they're in drop range, and would also give attackers some idea of where the defenders were.

It would seriously lessen the "gang bang" experience, I think. Knowing is half the battle. It's one thing to move in to target area, be ripped to pieces by 50+ defenders with no warning and be in the tower, vs KNOWING you're going into a terrible situation with 3 surrounding sectors of enemy dar bar and you won't make it out. It lessens the anger a bit, after you're dead.

[Krusty]

Maybe just to support my point, and maybe because it made me LOL:

The radar would help you know more of what's going on, and... well..

[AKKuya]

Maybe just to support my point, and maybe because it made me LOL:

The radar would help you know more of what's going on, and... well..


(Image removed from quote.)

I want my sharks with lazer beams!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!