Author Topic: Argentina is not alone  (Read 2702 times)

Offline RTHolmes

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Re: Argentina is not alone
« Reply #45 on: February 07, 2012, 05:21:37 PM »
I like it when Penguin posts, it makes me sound less pompous :aok
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Offline mbailey

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Re: Argentina is not alone
« Reply #46 on: February 07, 2012, 05:53:17 PM »
Here is a short list of those that were...........

 El Salvador (1980), Libya (1981), Sinai (1982), Lebanon (1982 1983), Egypt (1983), Grenada (1983), Honduras (1983), Chad (1983), Persian Gulf (1984), Libya (1986) , Bolivia (1986), Iran (1987), Persian Gulf (1987), Kuwait (1987), Iran (1988), Honduras (1988), Panama (1988), Libya (1989), Panama (1989), Colombia, Bolivia, and Peru (1989), Philippines (1989), Panama (1989-1990), Liberia (1990), Saudi Arabia (1990), Iraq (1991), Zaire (1991), Sierra Leone (1992), Somalia (1992), Bosnia-Herzegovina (1993 to present), Macedonia (1993), Haiti (1994), Macedonia (1994), Bosnia (1995), Liberia (1996), Central African Republic (1996), Albania (1997), Congo/Gabon (1997), Sierra Leon (1997), Cambodia (1997), Iraq (1998), Guinea/Bissau (1998), Kenya/Tanzania (1998 to 1999), Afghanistan/Sudan (1998), Liberia (1998), East Timor (1999), Serbia (1999), Sierra Leon (2000), Yemen (2000), East Timor (2000), Afghanistan (2001 to present), Yemen (2002), Philippines (2002) , Cote d'Ivoire (2002), Iraq (2003 to present), Liberia (2003), Georgia/Djibouti (2003), Haiti (2004), Georgia/Djibouti/Kenya/Ethiopia/Yemen/Eritrea War on Terror (2004), Pakistan drone attacks (2004 to present), Somalia (2007), South Ossetia/Georgia (2008), Syria (2008), Yemen (2009), etc. etc. etc. etc.

 :aok




 :rofl :rofl :rofl
Mbailey
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Offline Penguin

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Re: Argentina is not alone
« Reply #47 on: February 07, 2012, 06:01:11 PM »
I like it when Penguin posts, it makes me sound less pompous :aok

I don't see what's pompous about saying that it's better judge the actions of one's country oneself than simply to defer moral judgment to one's leaders.

-Penguin

Offline coombz

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Re: Argentina is not alone
« Reply #48 on: February 07, 2012, 06:18:09 PM »
I don't see what's pompous about saying that it's better judge the actions of one's country oneself than simply to defer moral judgment to one's leaders.

-Penguin

You did miss the entire point of the quote and start pompously giving your opinion on something pretty much irrelevant ;---)

But I forgive you, as you have good spelling and grammar  :cheers:
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Offline Penguin

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Re: Argentina is not alone
« Reply #49 on: February 07, 2012, 06:37:13 PM »
Isn't that the point of the quote?  Perhaps I misunderstood... care to enlighten me?

-Penguin

Offline coombz

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Re: Argentina is not alone
« Reply #50 on: February 07, 2012, 06:50:09 PM »
It's not about whether patriotism is a good thing or a bad thing, the guy was talking about pretend patriotism for the purpose of excusing, or promoting, actions that would otherwise be distasteful to people

that's not a great explanation but I hope you get the gist of it. I'm sure you can look it up somewhere and find a better worded explanation.
Did you see my dad on dogfights yet?
I'll be seeing you face to face possibly next month.

Offline Penguin

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Re: Argentina is not alone
« Reply #51 on: February 07, 2012, 07:29:39 PM »
I thought, and still think, that my post addressed that quite nicely.  Perhaps you were thinking of a different quote.  I was talking about "my country, right or wrong," not "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel".  Perhaps I got the two muddled in my head a bit, but I think you understand what I was saying.

-Penguin

Offline mthrockmor

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Re: Argentina is not alone
« Reply #52 on: February 07, 2012, 08:53:59 PM »
Many reasons that lead to war, economics is wrapped in virtually every one of them. 1066 and the Normans, not sure. There are some interesting, deep reads regarding the Spanish empire and the massive influx of Aztec gold and prices in Europe. Inflation raged for almost a century.

Means of exchange have been present in almost all cultures going back a few thousand years. Everything from shells to round rocks, bird feathers, etc. Gold and silver were settled on because the other means of exchange had a tendency to fall apart over time. Gold and silver just need a good shine and voila, back to normal.

Paper as a form of currency actually began with the Knights Templar and the first Crusade to Jerusalem way back when, roughly a thousand years. The Templars kept gold in their castles and in exchange for interest they would give a traveler an encoded receipt in England that could be cashed in Italy, Germany, France, Jerusalem, etc. This protected travelers, enriched the Templars, an order envowed to poverty.

Over time this grew into modern day fiat currency, inflation, fractional banking, bank runs, ruin, excess, war and the whole lot of it. When I use the "excessive monetary policy" don't confuse that for inflation. You have two tools, monetary and fiscal. Too much of one can be a bad thing. We have been in a run world wide for a few decades now, with a massive heap over the last decade. It would seem the devil may be coming due. One way out of this mess is a soft default. Others include war. The bigger the bubble, the bigger the mistake in trying to deflate reality.

Just my two cents.

Boo
No poor dumb bastard wins a war by dying for his country, he wins by making the other poor, dumb, bastard die for his.
George "Blood n Guts" Patton

Offline SmokinLoon

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Re: Argentina is not alone
« Reply #53 on: February 07, 2012, 10:03:22 PM »
How about SmokinLoon   :old:

Ya know, I'm a smart fellow.  I truly am.  But for the life of me I can not seem to grasp the concept of what your trying to say.  Please elaborate.   
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Offline Hannibal

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Re: Argentina is not alone
« Reply #54 on: February 08, 2012, 07:53:27 AM »
Many reasons that lead to war, economics is wrapped in virtually every one of them. 1066 and the Normans, not sure. There are some interesting, deep reads regarding the Spanish empire and the massive influx of Aztec gold and prices in Europe. Inflation raged for almost a century.

Means of exchange have been present in almost all cultures going back a few thousand years. Everything from shells to round rocks, bird feathers, etc. Gold and silver were settled on because the other means of exchange had a tendency to fall apart over time. Gold and silver just need a good shine and voila, back to normal.

Paper as a form of currency actually began with the Knights Templar and the first Crusade to Jerusalem way back when, roughly a thousand years. The Templars kept gold in their castles and in exchange for interest they would give a traveler an encoded receipt in England that could be cashed in Italy, Germany, France, Jerusalem, etc. This protected travelers, enriched the Templars, an order envowed to poverty.

Over time this grew into modern day fiat currency, inflation, fractional banking, bank runs, ruin, excess, war and the whole lot of it. When I use the "excessive monetary policy" don't confuse that for inflation. You have two tools, monetary and fiscal. Too much of one can be a bad thing. We have been in a run world wide for a few decades now, with a massive heap over the last decade. It would seem the devil may be coming due. One way out of this mess is a soft default. Others include war. The bigger the bubble, the bigger the mistake in trying to deflate reality.

Just my two cents.

Boo

Fiat money is older than that. The Romans are the ones that figured out that it doesn't matter what backs the money, all that matters is who controlls the quantity. They issued cheap coin made of brass and copper that wasn't based on the actual value of the metal, but was based on the faith and credit of the nation and they flourished. It wasn't untill Julius Ceasar opened the door back up for the goldsmiths by minting gold coins that their economy was ruined and the empire fell. Then there was the whole British tally stick system...It's funny that nowadays in response to all the banking bs in the US people are moving toward gold and silver which just makes it easier for the bankers to screw them.

Offline mthrockmor

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Re: Argentina is not alone
« Reply #55 on: February 08, 2012, 08:55:53 AM »
Fiat money is older than that. The Romans are the ones that figured out that it doesn't matter what backs the money, all that matters is who controlls the quantity. They issued cheap coin made of brass and copper that wasn't based on the actual value of the metal, but was based on the faith and credit of the nation and they flourished. It wasn't untill Julius Ceasar opened the door back up for the goldsmiths by minting gold coins that their economy was ruined and the empire fell. Then there was the whole British tally stick system...It's funny that nowadays in response to all the banking bs in the US people are moving toward gold and silver which just makes it easier for the bankers to screw them.

Can you point me in the direction of reading material on the Roman currency? I'd be interested to read it.

Boo
No poor dumb bastard wins a war by dying for his country, he wins by making the other poor, dumb, bastard die for his.
George "Blood n Guts" Patton

Offline Penguin

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Re: Argentina is not alone
« Reply #56 on: February 08, 2012, 06:35:35 PM »
Many reasons that lead to war, economics is wrapped in virtually every one of them. 1066 and the Normans, not sure. There are some interesting, deep reads regarding the Spanish empire and the massive influx of Aztec gold and prices in Europe. Inflation raged for almost a century.

Means of exchange have been present in almost all cultures going back a few thousand years. Everything from shells to round rocks, bird feathers, etc. Gold and silver were settled on because the other means of exchange had a tendency to fall apart over time. Gold and silver just need a good shine and voila, back to normal.

Paper as a form of currency actually began with the Knights Templar and the first Crusade to Jerusalem way back when, roughly a thousand years. The Templars kept gold in their castles and in exchange for interest they would give a traveler an encoded receipt in England that could be cashed in Italy, Germany, France, Jerusalem, etc. This protected travelers, enriched the Templars, an order envowed to poverty.

Over time this grew into modern day fiat currency, inflation, fractional banking, bank runs, ruin, excess, war and the whole lot of it. When I use the "excessive monetary policy" don't confuse that for inflation. You have two tools, monetary and fiscal. Too much of one can be a bad thing. We have been in a run world wide for a few decades now, with a massive heap over the last decade. It would seem the devil may be coming due. One way out of this mess is a soft default. Others include war. The bigger the bubble, the bigger the mistake in trying to deflate reality.

Just my two cents.

Boo

Now when you refer to monetary and fiscal policy, I'm still confused.  Monetary policy is the set of laws and ideas that govern the regulation of the money supply.  Fiscal policy is the same, only with regard to the budget.  Perhaps you refer to Normative Keynesian economics vs. Monetarism.  Too much Keynes leaves you with ballooning inflation, but the monetarist supply side ideas never panned out either; the deficit ballooned as taxes were cut and interest rates were hiked.  You also have to factor in the age of the population.  A young population will favor lower interest rates because young people borrow more often than they invest, while an old one will favor higher interest rates because they invest more often than they borrow.  The US population has been aging without a sufficient increase in the retirement age, so we saw a dramatic shift to supply-side economics because the old people (who vote more often anyway) pressed for monetarism.

However, as far as I can tell, both Keynesian and supply-side economics are too broad.  The government shouldn't just lower taxes overall during a recession; it should lower taxes on the industries that will benefit the country (and for larger countries, the world) the most.  Furthermore, it should not boost aggregate (overall) demand, but rather boost specific demand in the same areas that it lowered taxes on in order to lead to full employment with a far lower increase in inflation when compared to doing it to the whole economy.  Finally, it should tax the most profitable industries during good times and squirrel the money away in gold or other stable investments in order to be able to spend during the crashes that are endemic to capitalism (not a knock on the overall theory, but the irrational exuberance of the 1990s proves that steady growth leads to such bubbles).  In this way, the government normalizes the high and low ends of the business cycle in order to achieve steady, long-term growth with inflation very close to population growth.

-Penguin

Offline pembquist

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Re: Argentina is not alone
« Reply #57 on: February 08, 2012, 07:10:17 PM »
Personally I think we are all riding one big pendulum that sways back and forth in all matters of human affairs.  If you read "Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds" http://www.amazon.com/Extraordinary-Popular-Delusions-Madness-Crowds/dp/051788433X which was written over 100 years ago but reads just like today, you'll begin to realize that nothing is ever new and we seem to ping pong back and forth between skepticism and gullibility over the years.  On the grisly subject of war I think it was George Carlin that said we all like to fight and we have a war and get all upset and say "ooh that was terrible lets not do that again" then a few years go by and we get all tough and want to fight again.  Frankly I am pretty sure when(if?) we have another real war,(not the asymmetric kind, but something between world powers,) its not going to be like we plan for or imagine and its going to be really bad.  If you read "The Gun", http://www.amazon.com/Gun-C-J-Chivers/dp/0743270762 , and reflect on the part the covers the Maxim gun and WWI I think you get a foretaste of what will happen to us in a global conflagration only on a bigger scale than the european conflict.  I imagine some kind of substitution of information technology, genetics and robotics for the machine gun and just let your mind wander down that ugly little path.  In the face of this I wonder if technologies like the carrier group are going to go the way of the cavalry charge.
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Offline RTHolmes

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Re: Argentina is not alone
« Reply #58 on: February 08, 2012, 07:11:14 PM »
OT much?
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Offline Penguin

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Re: Argentina is not alone
« Reply #59 on: February 08, 2012, 07:12:19 PM »
Or, we realize the mistakes of the past and continue on the path toward global prosperity and freedom.

-Penguin