Author Topic: Anyone know how to weld?  (Read 1561 times)

Offline saggs

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Re: Anyone know how to weld?
« Reply #45 on: February 24, 2012, 02:00:39 PM »
Well, when I finish building my Bearhawk, I would like to show in my builders log that all welds were crafted properly so my DAR gives me an airworthiness certificate.  That coupled with the coin that I shelled out for my EAA class on welding leads me to believe that the pros know what they are doing.

 It is physically possible to perform MIG welds on 4130, but if the joint is cooled too quickly, it will be a brittle weld.  There is no other way about it.  It is the nature of the steel because of the carbon content.  The "41" denotes a low alloy steel containing nominally 1 percent chromium and 0.2 percent molybdenum (hence the nickname "chromoly"). The "30" denotes a carbon content of 0.30 percent.  If you heat 4130 to the point where the carbon comes to the surface and then cooled too quickly (even a drafty garage is too quickly), it develops Martensetic qualities (a crystalline structure typical of steel containing carbon that has been heat treated) the weld will become brittle.  If this happens, it has to be tempered just like tool steel or it will develop stress fractures and possibly break.  An O/A flame weld has less tendency to do this

When welding an airframe, especially the clusters where there are lots of tube joints, there is a tendency for that area to become hot enough that the joint requires normalization.  A MIG or SMAW welded airframe, if performed by a homebuilder, will not pass the DAR's inspection.  This much I know.

Having a TIG welder at home would be nice, especially considering all of the welding that I do on my Wrangler and the parts that I fab for it, but I cannot justify the cost, especially since I dumped money into a lathe and mill.  In fact, TIG welding is becoming the method of choice for homebuilt aircraft enthusiasts and when I am ready to start assembling my frame, I may consider buying one.  For now, all I that I have been welding are the steel parts for the wing assembly (control surface/flap linkage/stick, etc) which are easily done with my O/A setup.  Besides, torch welding has an almost zen-like quality about it :)  Some of the older builders swear by it.  I have seen some older welders repair construction equipment in the field with nothing more than a portable O/A torch and a coat hanger and still make the weld look like a stack of dimes  :O

As for the friction welders?  I could only wish  :pray

I see, does Bearhawk specify in the builders manual oxyacetylene only, or can you TIG it?  Cub Crafters and Maule might do some kind of normalizing or baking after thy MIG their airframes, all I know is that they do the actual welding with MIG.

BTW, not to hijack the thread too much, but which Bearhawk are you building?  

I've dreamed about building one of the Super Cub kits, but most of them are pretty expensive (Cub Crafters wants $66K for the Carbon Cub kit, add engine, prop, avionics, paint, wheels and tires, and it's not much cheaper then their certified version  :eek: )  Anyway, I've been wondering if the Bearhawk Patrol kit which is significantly cheaper is a suitable "cub-like" alternative.  According to Bearhawks website it cruises quite a bit faster (less draggy) but I'm sure sacrifices STOL somewhat to do so.  Probably still pretty good though.  Honestly in my looking at them the only thing I wish the Patrol had was the jackscrew tail trim like the Cub.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2012, 02:04:06 PM by saggs »

Offline RTHolmes

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Re: Anyone know how to weld?
« Reply #46 on: February 24, 2012, 02:35:36 PM »
find a good welder to teach you, its a mix of art and science and experience counts for everything. maybe try to get a short apprenticeship with a local shop in the school holidays?


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Offline VonMessa

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Re: Anyone know how to weld?
« Reply #47 on: February 24, 2012, 03:39:41 PM »
I see, does Bearhawk specify in the builders manual oxyacetylene only, or can you TIG it?  Cub Crafters and Maule might do some kind of normalizing or baking after thy MIG their airframes, all I know is that they do the actual welding with MIG.

BTW, not to hijack the thread too much, but which Bearhawk are you building?  

I've dreamed about building one of the Super Cub kits, but most of them are pretty expensive (Cub Crafters wants $66K for the Carbon Cub kit, add engine, prop, avionics, paint, wheels and tires, and it's not much cheaper then their certified version  :eek: )  Anyway, I've been wondering if the Bearhawk Patrol kit which is significantly cheaper is a suitable "cub-like" alternative.  According to Bearhawks website it cruises quite a bit faster (less draggy) but I'm sure sacrifices STOL somewhat to do so.  Probably still pretty good though.  Honestly in my looking at them the only thing I wish the Patrol had was the jackscrew tail trim like the Cub.

It can be TIG welded, I just don't have one. I have access to one, but I can't use it in my shop, I have to go to IT to use it.

I'm building the 4-place.  The patrol is a tandem and does not carry enough weight for my taste, but I'm sure you could put the jackscrew on it.  AviPro only makes the kits.  The best person to ask would be the designer, Bob Barrows.  He is very accessible and easily reached by phone.  I dropped in on him while on a road trip this summer.  Nice guy.

I'm scratch building, so I don't know what the kits cost as I never really seriously priced them.
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Offline icepac

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Re: Anyone know how to weld?
« Reply #48 on: February 24, 2012, 03:43:02 PM »
Original Poster should not be welding a tank.

Offline Golfer

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Re: Anyone know how to weld?
« Reply #49 on: February 24, 2012, 03:46:51 PM »
I think he meant a vehicle rather than air tank.

Offline F22RaptorDude

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Re: Anyone know how to weld?
« Reply #50 on: February 24, 2012, 03:50:39 PM »
A tank as in the treads and an air cannon in the turret, i'm looking for a steel skeleton with plywood skin, not sure what to do with the engine I can't find one that I can manage

I've asked around my family, not one person knows how to weld, I'll ask around at school again when i get back, i've been sick the past few days


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Offline uptown

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Re: Anyone know how to weld?
« Reply #51 on: February 24, 2012, 03:56:51 PM »
I'm beyond eager to learn how to, I want to get some knowledge so I can build my own scratch build go kart, and possibly a air soft tank for me and a few buds

I've heard that MIG welding is the most common and easiest to use? But i'm still not understanding how it works?
you can get a 110v Lincoln mig welder at Home Depot for around 400 bucks. Those units are pretty good at welding up to 1/4 inch steel. I'd suggest you get flux wire as you won't need sheilding gas or tanks. The flux wire will allow you to weld outdoors alot easier as you won't have to worry about wind blowing your gas away from your wire. You will have a bit more spatter to content with, but that's not that big of a deal, has you should have a angle grinder with a sanding disk to take care of that.

I've been a welder for over 30 yrs. and can tell you for a fact that all there is to it is practice. Find a good beginners welding book if you must understand the techincal aspects of welding and different annoys. Stay away from aluminum material. Though it is possible to weld aluminum with a mig welder, a tig welder is more suited for that.

If welding is something you really want to learn, start off with tack welds then run some 1 or 2 inch beads until they are consistant as far as width, height and depth. The try welding 2 pieces of steel together. Most importantly keep in mind that welding isn't something you'll be good at overnight. If ya have any questions just give me a holla. Good luck  :salute

P.S. alway keep that helmet down when ur getting ready to strike an arc. You don't want your eyes burnt..trust me. I've burnt my eyes half a dozen times over the years and haven't welded for a living in several years but I still have eye problems today because of it. I used to use a Miller pulse welder and those bad boys ain't no joke. :old:

« Last Edit: February 24, 2012, 04:09:22 PM by uptown »
Lighten up Francis

Offline VonMessa

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Re: Anyone know how to weld?
« Reply #52 on: February 24, 2012, 08:04:00 PM »
you can get a 110v Lincoln mig welder at Home Depot for around 400 bucks. Those units are pretty good at welding up to 1/4 inch steel. I'd suggest you get flux wire as you won't need sheilding gas or tanks. The flux wire will allow you to weld outdoors alot easier as you won't have to worry about wind blowing your gas away from your wire. You will have a bit more spatter to content with, but that's not that big of a deal, has you should have a angle grinder with a sanding disk to take care of that.

I've been a welder for over 30 yrs. and can tell you for a fact that all there is to it is practice. Find a good beginners welding book if you must understand the techincal aspects of welding and different annoys. Stay away from aluminum material. Though it is possible to weld aluminum with a mig welder, a tig welder is more suited for that.

If welding is something you really want to learn, start off with tack welds then run some 1 or 2 inch beads until they are consistant as far as width, height and depth. The try welding 2 pieces of steel together. Most importantly keep in mind that welding isn't something you'll be good at overnight. If ya have any questions just give me a holla. Good luck  :salute

P.S. alway keep that helmet down when ur getting ready to strike an arc. You don't want your eyes burnt..trust me. I've burnt my eyes half a dozen times over the years and haven't welded for a living in several years but I still have eye problems today because of it. I used to use a Miller pulse welder and those bad boys ain't no joke. :old:



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Offline spammer

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Re: Anyone know how to weld?
« Reply #53 on: February 24, 2012, 10:02:08 PM »
I think I would go with an Heliarc. A Tig welder can weld any metal, both Ferrous and Non Ferrous materials. Welds are stronger and cleaner. A Mig welder is easiest to learn, The Tig welder separates the Men from the Boys. If I were to build a frame for anything mechanical with my life depending on it......It would be Tig welded. For production purposes, the squirtgun would be faster as long as you didn't have to clean up the welds. (Steel Only)

Tig welding is Art, Mig welding is Slop.

Don't beat up on me guys, I own both Mig and Tig Welders, and I buy American, "Miller". I'm true blue.

Good luck on your endeavors.

Offline rpm

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Re: Anyone know how to weld?
« Reply #54 on: February 25, 2012, 06:40:13 AM »
When we hire a welder.... we go through maybe 80 to 100 applications to find one with a good hand. They are not up to our standard but they can be taught if they have a good hand.

Welders are a dime a dozen... good ones are hard to find.
My Bro In-law owns a fab company that builds oilfield machinery. His shop is booming but he can't find enough good welders to keep up with demand. There is zero room for error. Everything has to pass X-Ray.
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Offline homersipes

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Re: Anyone know how to weld?
« Reply #55 on: February 25, 2012, 08:50:40 AM »
I always enjoyed oxy-acetolyn welding.  Kind of lost art now with the mig and tig.  I tried tiging when I was in metalshop in high school, could never get the hang of the foot control I think I might be able to do it now that I am older and understand a little more but cant afford a tig until my rich uncle gets outta the poor house lol.  RPM my dad works in the oilfield so he might use some of his stuff.

Offline icepac

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Re: Anyone know how to weld?
« Reply #56 on: February 25, 2012, 11:10:18 AM »
I've found the most important thing in welding is ensuring the welder is not being hamstrung by running on a circuit that isn't up to the task.

This is most important if you go with a 110 welder since they draw more amps than a 220 welder at the same amperage.

I use a ck systematics welder that runs on 110 but has a special (as in super heavy) transformer and can run continuous (100% duty)  but.......it's being a 110 welder really can cause any weakness in your shop/house wiring to show.

Offline VonMessa

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Re: Anyone know how to weld?
« Reply #57 on: February 25, 2012, 11:50:49 PM »
I always enjoyed oxy-acetolyn welding.  Kind of lost art now with the mig and tig.  I tried tiging when I was in metalshop in high school, could never get the hang of the foot control I think I might be able to do it now that I am older and understand a little more but cant afford a tig until my rich uncle gets outta the poor house lol.  RPM my dad works in the oilfield so he might use some of his stuff.
 

The motions (of controlling the heat source and feeding the fill wire) are somewhat similar for TIG and O/A welding.
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