A realistic (and historical) way to end spray and pray

[ezrust]

There seems to be no recoil modeled in AH.  I am reading "Zemke's Wolfpack" and came across this passage:

"...I got to my feet to ask the General how he expected a seven ton Thunderbolt to fly formation at 150 miles per hour indicated at 25,000 feet?  Did he realize that when a P-47 pilot pressed the trigger and eight point fifties opened up the aircraft slowed by twenty or thirty miles per hour?  P-47s would be spinning out of B-17 formations like leaves in a fall wind."

If you are being chased and your foe fires at D10 and slows 30mph as a result you will outrun him.
I also read about planes going into spins because the left wing guns were not firing and the imbalance caused by the firing of the right wing guns jolted the plane into a flat spin stall.
All the accounts speak of the plane shaking and rattling with the violence of the guns going off.
If recoil were acurately modeled I think you would see people holding off until range was much decreased.  One would also appreciate the difference between a stable gun platform and an unstable one.

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RUST
   
JG2 "Richthofen"


[This message has been edited by ezrust (edited 04-10-2000).]

[Rocket]

S!
  I think they are somewhat.  Maybe not near enough but somewhat modeled.  Pull the trigger in level flight with auto off on a 1C and watch the nose drop.  Use the spitV and fire the .303s and watch, hardly any drop.  The .50s tend to cause some drop to the nose.  You can also see it sitting on the runway.

Rocket

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The Red Dragons
Fierce and Bold
With Honour and Courage
_______________________

 www.reddragons.de

[This message has been edited by Rocket (edited 04-10-2000).]

[Pongo]

I mentioned a while ago that the recoil of the guns along with non modeled atmospheric conditions and manufacturing imperfections would limit the effective range of guns to far less then there benchmark stats would indicate. Your quote is a great example of one of these.

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Pongo
The Wrecking Crew

[Hristo]

Actually, recoil works. For example, when someone is climbing at me and fires, I just know it will slow him down and make an easy prey. Also, Spit firing from 1000 yards in straight chase is about to make a lucky shot or slow down due to his recoil.

I'd like to see even more recoil on some planes though. Not sure if is accurate now.

[Hangtime]

I've seen and used recoil effects here.. They are not real violent; but the sim emulates some recoil. The sim also has some sycronization effects. (hang wishes he could spell)

Hang

[Citabria]

want to experience the force of recoil firsthand?

It's not subtle on the heavy hitters  

1. start your engine on the ground in an f4u1c or fw190.


2.add just a tiny microscopic amount of power.

3. now that you are barely moving forward FIRE all your guns!

4. after you get speed going in revrse from the force of the recoil pull the power from the engine  

AH has parking brakes set  if the plane is not moving hence the reason it dosnt move when you fire guns with power off  


Cool trick eh?  

[This message has been edited by Citabria (edited 04-11-2000).]

[Saintaw]

I tried it yesterday : was flying a 190 with 4x 20's...

Ran out of Fuel at 10 K alt near the base but was not sure if I could make it... I still had some 200 rnds of 20's and as I was gliding, I decided to empty them as to be lighter (I think it IS modeled since U can fly the P38 with 2 ammo loads).

My Speed effectively dropped a bit (5-10 Kts) after I fired all rounds... But am not sure if I was lighter or not after that.


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Saw/Saintaw
=XO=III/JG2~Richthofen~
GMT T.O.D. SITE
 
JG2 "Richthofen"
Don't shoot ! I am only an observer......

[This message has been edited by Saintaw (edited 04-11-2000).]

[juzz]

The difference in climbrate when I shot off all the ammo in the Fw 190A-8 was about 300fpm. So you do get lighter.

[LLv34_Camouflage]

If you fire a machine gun continuously for over 5 secs, the barrels start to overheat.  This results in rapid barrel wear and eventually bending, which will throw off the aim very quickly.

Here's a quote from the FAF (finnish air force) war time test reports on 12,7mm (50cal) machine guns:

"To prevent the barrels from overheating, short bursts of 15-20 rounds had to be fired. Firing with a hot barrel resulted in an arced bullet flight path and bad accuracy."

The usual firing range for finnish pilots in WW2 was under 150 yards. Most pilots got well under 100 yds before firing.  I started to think about "bad accuracy" at these ranges... The bullets really have to arc a lot to miss the target at that range.  I'd say 20 degrees or even more...

Presently in any flight sim, I can fire my guns continuosly until I run out of ammo, and the bullet stream stays straight as an arrow.

...interesting...

Camo

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Camouflage
XO, Lentolaivue 34
 www.muodos.fi/LLv34

"The really good pilots use their superior judgement to keep them out of situations
where they might be required to demonstrate their superior skill."

[ezrust]

Well, if it is modelled it is very slight.  If I am chasing someone at D10 and start firing multiple bursts for several seconds my speed and distance from my prey doesn't drop SIGNIFICANTLY if at all.  I can't see a difference between flying while firing  and just flying.  If we are both flying at 400mph and the recoil from my guns slows me down 30mph he should begin outdistancing me by 30mph.  
Also if my right guns get jammed can I stall my aircraft by firing my left guns?  I haven't tried it but will next time this happens.
Ok.  I just tried this offline:  I took off in an F4U-C and flew level with the stall horn blaring (around 110 mph).  I fired all my guns for twenty seconds with absolutely no noticable effects.  Firing all the guns at stall speed for several seconds should jerk me out of the sky.  If recoil is modelled it is extremely slight.

[funked]

Ezrust - I disagree completely.

Recoil works big time.  

If you fire continuously your plane will slow 30-40 mph.  

On the Typhoon you have to pull back on the stick to maintain level flight because the recoil forces try to nose the plane over.

And the plane shakes a LOT when firing.

Don't forget we have very significant dispersion as well, most of which is caused by recoil.



[This message has been edited by funked (edited 04-11-2000).]

[Minotaur]

I never really noticed any recoil effect.  If the effect is in the game it is fairly slight.  I will do some testing.

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Mino
The Wrecking Crew

[MiG Eater]

Recoil effects are definately present.  Set up a climb in a P-51, best rate works well.  Start firing the guns and the airplane slows down quite rapidly in addition to a nose down pitching.  If in auto pilot, the effect is seen as a reduction in rate of climb since otto is compensating for the deceleration by dropping the nose.  Take up a Spitfire, again in a climb.  This time, fire off very quick bursts of the 20mm.  The airplane will yaw back and forth for a few moments then settle back to to its steady state.  The Me-109 with the wing gondolas and the FW with four cannons also display the recoil effect in short bursts via a yawing moment and deceleration with prolonged firing.  

MiG

[ezrust]

I don't dispute that recoil is there I only suggest it is not nearly violent enough.  Offline, I just took a Spit IX, set boost to 12, auto level.  The speed rested at 270mph.  After a few minutes I fired all the guns continuously until they were all empty.  The speed slowly crept down to 260mph.  10mph loss for firing every round in the plane continuously is a barely noticable recoil effect.  In fact, I consider it negligible.  The plane only took about 15 seconds to creep back up to 270mph after the rounds had ceased.
The plane should have slowed at least three times that amount.

[funked]

Ezrust, keep in mind that 8 fifties have a LOT more recoil than the Spit guns.  I think the P-47 anectdote is a pretty extreme case.