Author Topic: Decide for yourself.  (Read 1319 times)

Offline Shuffler

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Re: Decide for yourself.
« Reply #30 on: March 06, 2012, 04:49:52 PM »
Was just checking  :lol  So, as long as someone works, they should be doing fine right?  Like lets say a 70 year old waitress at the dinner down the street?  Let me guess, it is her fault she landed there but since she is working she should be doing fine right?

So, my taxes go down every time one of them gets a job?  I had no idea  :O  In your opinion it is OK to have socialism when it comes to police, schools, and fire department but not for health care?  Just curious, why is health care different?  Lets remove schools and police also.  I can afford to send my kids to better schools than your socialist system can provide anyway lol.

Bottom line is that your taxes will never go down and they are not high because of the what I call unfortunate and you call lazy people in this country.  You just would rather see your money support some foreign dictator than even consider the idea that a fellow American might see any benefit from what you think is your money, even though it is mine also.


Your failure to prepare is not because of me. Live or die with it. :)

Your kids are not because of me raise them... I raise mine.

Your bills are your bills not mine... I pay mine.

Problem today is so many folks want someone else to babysit them, get them out of trouble... if they don't then it is their fault and not the fault of the perpetrator.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2012, 04:52:45 PM by Shuffler »
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Offline Penguin

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Re: Decide for yourself.
« Reply #31 on: March 06, 2012, 05:46:33 PM »
I think we are talking about two different ideas here. 

Far on the left, there are liberal (no totalitarian government) socialism and communism, which require a very specific kind of population to work.  This population must be industrious (no-one sitting on their laurels) and altruistic and there cannot be any "careerists" (those who take advantage of the system for power).  Unfortunately, random genetic assortment prevents this from occurring unless we can find a way to code it out permanently.  There is also the specter of the USSR, which is totalitarian control of the economy.

On the moderate left there is universal free healthcare for all.  Again, it has the same potential for abuse as above, but it isn't socialism because there is a free market for other things like shoes, toothpaste, finance, etc.

In the middle you have social security and Medicare, both of which face under-funding and a spike in use due to an aging population.

On the moderate right you have the "rugged individualist" society in which, like Shuffler said, everyone is industrious, independent, and the government is much like it is today on the inside (the outside will usually be nationalist or pacifist).

The far right splits with either totalitarian control of the economy and exclusively aggressive foreign policy, laissez-faire (very light regulation, save for for things like child labor, elevators, safety systems), or complete deregulation of the economy (no rules at all) and either a night-watchman state or none at all.

We need to decide which we're arguing about.  We also need to draw the line between "unfortunate" and "lazy," and what to do with them.  Here are my definitions, feel free to correct them:

Unfortunate: Someone who is experiencing negative consequences either beyond their control or that are the results of actions, the consequences of which are amplified by the system.
Lazy: Someone who is not motivated to work for a reason.  The definition of lazy cannot be circular- there must always be a reason.

What to do with unfortunate people: help them to succeed by getting them out of their funk with the "public dole".  Thus, state-run education, disaster services, low-income healthcare, welfare, food-stamps, etc.  However, there must be a review of the person in order to see if the help is working.  Drug addiction places someone in the "unfortunate" category because the definition of addiction is that use is beyond the sufferer's control.

What to do with lazy people: see if they are just lazy or indeed unfortunate.  Depression, addiction, and other disorders can easily masquerade as laziness.  The truly lazy should actually be satisfied with their life and thus not helped if the aid is non-negligible (e.g., if you're just buying some food once in a while, it's not a big deal for the budget, but totally subsidizing people's lives if they aren't producing anything otherwise unattainable in return is unacceptable).

That way you avoid a good deal of suffering, people are happier, and no-one is "stuck".  That way being lazy is either its own reward or you can easily get out and compete on a level playing field.  That means positive action to get people out of the funk.  In the end it saves you money because the economy gains access to more human capital, thus leading to growth.  The process must be continuous in that aspect, but many problems are like snarls in fishing line- take the time to undo them and they shouldn't come back, or at least long enough to make undoing them worth the effort.

On drug addiction itself, much of it starts in the teenage years when the brain is prone to weigh reward more than risk.  That is not being irrational- the input changed, not the machine.  It looks like this:

Reality->Preprocessor->Rational Mind->Action

It has been proven that this "preprocessor" is present in all of us.  It's why advertising and propaganda work well; they play on our 'heartstrings' or 'preprocessor' to create choices that are both rational but not based in reality.  During adolescence this preprocessor malfunctions and weighs reward more than risk (evolutionary baggage).  Thus, doing drugs goes from dangerous to OK and back to dangerous in the space of about 25 years, with around 15 of those years being the OK part.  This isn't true for everyone, but it does happen to most.  This temporary malfunction can lead to drug use and later drug addiction.  However, once addicted the person doesn't want to stay that way.  Unfortunately, life as a heroin addict doesn't do wonders to your self-esteem, either.  It can sap your motivation and make you depressed, which creates what I call "bum syndrome": apparent laziness caused by hidden but powerful brain and emotional damage.

That's why there will always be "bums on the street".  They aren't there because they're happiest there.  Most are miserable but too downtrodden to get out of the funk.  Fixing them isn't easy, either; it can take years of intensive and expensive therapy to get them off the drugs and feeling good about themselves.  The drug use itself can also precede the damage, which makes the problem even worse by requiring the 'bum' to deal with their particular mental disease while going through withdrawal.

The biggest problem, however, is the labeling.  No-one wants to help a 'bum' because they are perfectly broken.  However, the homeless include disaster victims, the lost (literally), and those with untreated mental diseases.  However, a good chunk of people forget all that because it's easier to just lump them all together into one big category of perfectly broken sub-humans who deserve to suffer.  You know what doing that should remind them of?  Being a bum.

-Penguin

Offline W7LPNRICK

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Re: Decide for yourself.
« Reply #32 on: March 06, 2012, 08:04:08 PM »
naturopath = quack  All you need to know.

opinions vary...a lot!  :rolleyes:
WildWzl
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Offline coombz

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Re: Decide for yourself.
« Reply #33 on: March 06, 2012, 08:11:09 PM »
Communism doesn't work... neither does it's sister socialism period.

Socialist models seem to be working excellently in European countries such as Sweden, Finland and others (Denmark? Switzerland maybe? too lazy to use Google)

Better educated populace than the US, higher quality of life, less unemployment, less religious idiots interfering with sensible policy, great education and health care that is provided by the govt rather than only wealthy people getting the best opportunities :aok  

I don't really expect you to know what you're talking about before repeating things you've heard from Rush though, don't worry ;)
« Last Edit: March 06, 2012, 08:13:47 PM by coombz »
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Offline W7LPNRICK

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Re: Decide for yourself.
« Reply #34 on: March 06, 2012, 08:18:43 PM »
You might want to reevaluate your statement here, could be Del knows what he was saying.

Then again maybe I don't. Maybe every opinion on this forum is because of the education they received. That doesn't ever make that conclusion final. If that were true, then Yes the earth is flat.  :noid  "Medicine" is still learning, now faster than ever. The money flow and how it is intentionally curbed and funneled decides what is taught & what is not. The fact that successful inventors of cancer cures cannot get grants, even though the empirical data proves their treatments work, is direct evidence of control by those already filthy rich with their tentacles reaching everywhere. I believe what my experiences have taught me. First I read it, then I tried it, then My health improved and surgery was avoided. Black Walnut Husks for example:
http://www.globalhealingcenter.com/benefits-of/organic-black-walnut-hull
Where would you read about this is the established medical community? Yet native Americans used it for hundreds of years.
There are definitely Quacks out there. That doesn't make it all nonsense.
WildWzl
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Offline mthrockmor

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Re: Decide for yourself.
« Reply #35 on: March 06, 2012, 08:32:22 PM »
Coombz, I spent an afternoon with the Minister of Education from Finland (small crowd.) Very interesting discussion regarding, what is generally considered the finest public education model in the industrialized world. Many great ideas to consider in the US, certainly in Tennessee.

As we discussed I asked about the population. It is very white America circa 1950's They have very small mobility issues, very traditional family supports and incredibly homogeneous. I would also throw in relatively religious system as opposed to America's secular/anti-Christian education model. In the US, certainly in the massive population centers such as New York, Chicago, etc completely different populations and issues. Finland provides great ideas to consider though the problems are not the same. Some ideas have merit, others problematic from moment one.

This small slice may speak to other issues that make up both an economy and services provided by the government. Interesting that while America is attempting to go European all that I am reading is Europe in flames and beginning to head towards America. Best example is health care. The UK model was all the rage, now we read that Parliament is strongly considering private health insurance.

Could it be the grass is greener on the other side. Europe is not perfect, not a complete failure. Same goes for the US. Socialism is a spectrum and it seems to be diminishing in the UK.

Boo
No poor dumb bastard wins a war by dying for his country, he wins by making the other poor, dumb, bastard die for his.
George "Blood n Guts" Patton

Offline Penguin

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Re: Decide for yourself.
« Reply #36 on: March 06, 2012, 08:35:57 PM »
coomz, that's slanted and you know it.  Europe is going through a massive debt crisis and it had no plans in case its burgeoning entitlement programs outstripped its budget.  Socialism, while nice, requires near-perfect government, which certainly wasn't present there.  Even five or six years ago I read that Sweden had problems with its national debt- socialism isn't perfect by any means.

W7:  I love how well you slipped in at least three unproven statements.  Cancer cures not being brought to market?  Where were you when that debate over whether giving HPV vaccines to children was a good idea?  HPV can cause cervical cancer in girls- for them its even better than a cure, it's practically a vaccine!  Baloney to the idea of doctors being controlled by corporations.  When my mom went through medical school, internship, fellowship, and residency all she talked about was the exams.  Heck, I asked her point-blank in the car: "If you could cure all the diseases you treat, but not see a cent of the money nor even acclaim, would you?"  Her voice trembled and rose like that guy who gave the speech Independence Day and she said 'yes'.  She never lies- she even told me about how I almost died on the way out of her.  I've even seen her office and heard her prescribe treatment over the phone.  Patients come in, she checks them out, they get their prescriptions and they leave.  They come back because they have chronic diseases like diabetes, not because she's doing anything on purpose.

If anyone is suspect of ulterior motive, it's you.  It's more likely that you've got a stake in this drug than all of medicine being controlled by the unnamed suits of Big Pharma.  In fact, would you care to name the specific people in charge of this operation?  Are you aware of the number and caliber of people who investigate this kind of stuff all the time?  How did you best them, and uncover what would make a laughing stock of my mother and the rest of all the physicians on the planet?  Let's get your methodology, your evidence, your works cited- all of it.  What have you got to lose?

-Penguin

Offline coombz

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Re: Decide for yourself.
« Reply #37 on: March 06, 2012, 08:51:01 PM »
coomz, that's slanted and you know it.  Europe is going through a massive debt crisis and it had no plans in case its burgeoning entitlement programs outstripped its budget.  Socialism, while nice, requires near-perfect government, which certainly wasn't present there.  Even five or six years ago I read that Sweden had problems with its national debt- socialism isn't perfect by any means.

No argument with any of that.

I was simply pointing out that Shuffler's blanket statement that 'socialism doesn't work' is stupid. (like pretty much everything he posts in the O'Club  :neener: )

a lot of Americans are still hanging on to ideas propogated from US cold war-era propaganda imo, I find it hilarious
« Last Edit: March 06, 2012, 08:53:31 PM by coombz »
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Offline mthrockmor

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Re: Decide for yourself.
« Reply #38 on: March 06, 2012, 10:25:41 PM »
Coombs, I'll grant you America is a socialist nation, albeit it slight. At least substantially less then Europe. Most Americans are denial. It is a matter of degrees but we have crossed the Rubicon. Now how far into the woods. Our debt is massive at over $15trillion. Our unhooked liabilities is staggering. CBO puts them $100trillion plus. Reality is non negotiable. We will sort it out because we must.

Boo
No poor dumb bastard wins a war by dying for his country, he wins by making the other poor, dumb, bastard die for his.
George "Blood n Guts" Patton

Offline Penguin

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Re: Decide for yourself.
« Reply #39 on: March 06, 2012, 10:54:40 PM »
Socialism implies a collective ownership of the means of production.  The US is closer to a welfare state.

-Penguin

Offline mthrockmor

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Re: Decide for yourself.
« Reply #40 on: March 07, 2012, 06:39:51 AM »
Marxism equals government ownership of means of production. Socialists learned almost a century ago they do not need to own means to control production. Fascism operates in this light as a partnership with means of production (ie corporations and businesses) to implement state agenda. Clearly Fascism is socialist.

Welfare state as a matter of degrees towards a pure Marxist/socialist state. The worst to fight over who or what is socialism is the socialists themselves. I've watched them tear at each others throat over whether or not Mao was a committed communist or schill for the capitalists. Kind of funny though amazing how vicious.

Boo
No poor dumb bastard wins a war by dying for his country, he wins by making the other poor, dumb, bastard die for his.
George "Blood n Guts" Patton

Offline Shuffler

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Re: Decide for yourself.
« Reply #41 on: March 07, 2012, 09:06:56 AM »
Socialist models seem to be working excellently in European countries such as Sweden, Finland and others (Denmark? Switzerland maybe? too lazy to use Google)

Better educated populace than the US, higher quality of life, less unemployment, less religious idiots interfering with sensible policy, great education and health care that is provided by the govt rather than only wealthy people getting the best opportunities :aok  

I don't really expect you to know what you're talking about before repeating things you've heard from Rush though, don't worry ;)

You saying rush shows your ignorance. I do not listen to him. I'm an American that dispises what some are trying to do to our country.

Maybe you should take a look at the history of our country before the idiots got hold of it.
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Offline Shuffler

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Re: Decide for yourself.
« Reply #42 on: March 07, 2012, 09:11:02 AM »
No argument with any of that.

I was simply pointing out that Shuffler's blanket statement that 'socialism doesn't work' is stupid. (like pretty much everything he posts in the O'Club  :neener: )

a lot of Americans are still hanging on to ideas propogated from US cold war-era propaganda imo, I find it hilarious

I wouldn't expect a foreigner to have a clue in regards to the US. You prove this point.
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Offline dedalos

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Re: Decide for yourself.
« Reply #43 on: March 07, 2012, 09:12:40 AM »
Your failure to prepare is not because of me. Live or die with it. :)

Your kids are not because of me raise them... I raise mine.

Your bills are your bills not mine... I pay mine.

Problem today is so many folks want someone else to babysit them, get them out of trouble... if they don't then it is their fault and not the fault of the perpetrator.

Wow, your failure to answer any of my questions is amazing  :lol  So the failure of a foreign country or dictator to prepare IS your problem but what you perceive as the failure of a fellow American is not?  :lol  

Let me ask again.  Why is it OK to have a socialist system in place when it comes to education, police, fire departments, etc but not health?
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Offline W7LPNRICK

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Re: Decide for yourself.
« Reply #44 on: March 07, 2012, 12:21:09 PM »
coomz, that's slanted and you know it.  Europe is going through a massive debt crisis and it had no plans in case its burgeoning entitlement programs outstripped its budget.  Socialism, while nice, requires near-perfect government, which certainly wasn't present there.  Even five or six years ago I read that Sweden had problems with its national debt- socialism isn't perfect by any means.

W7:  I love how well you slipped in at least three unproven statements.  Cancer cures not being brought to market?  Where were you when that debate over whether giving HPV vaccines to children was a good idea?  HPV can cause cervical cancer in girls- for them its even better than a cure, it's practically a vaccine!  Baloney to the idea of doctors being controlled by corporations.  When my mom went through medical school, internship, fellowship, and residency all she talked about was the exams.  Heck, I asked her point-blank in the car: "If you could cure all the diseases you treat, but not see a cent of the money nor even acclaim, would you?"  Her voice trembled and rose like that guy who gave the speech Independence Day and she said 'yes'.  She never lies- she even told me about how I almost died on the way out of her.  I've even seen her office and heard her prescribe treatment over the phone.  Patients come in, she checks them out, they get their prescriptions and they leave.  They come back because they have chronic diseases like diabetes, not because she's doing anything on purpose.

If anyone is suspect of ulterior motive, it's you.  It's more likely that you've got a stake in this drug than all of medicine being controlled by the unnamed suits of Big Pharma.  In fact, would you care to name the specific people in charge of this operation?  Are you aware of the number and caliber of people who investigate this kind of stuff all the time?  How did you best them, and uncover what would make a laughing stock of my mother and the rest of all the physicians on the planet?  Let's get your methodology, your evidence, your works cited- all of it.  What have you got to lose?

-Penguin

Did you watch the videos? Did you look for You tube video Dr Burzinshy's Cancer cure. There's a lot to watch, but entirely supported by facts. These statements are never 100% inclusive of all the "Good People" doing good work in healthcare. Instead, it's an indictment of the systems resistance to influence outside their control, which might change the flow of some money.
WildWzl
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