How do you approach a Spit?

[PFactorDave]

There have been a couple of threads lately that have discussed the Spits and whether or not they are in fact easy mode.  Every time this topic comes up, there are a number of folks who post that spits aren't hard to handle "if you know how".

Personally, I still struggle when fighting spits.  I thought it might be educational if we could discuss how you approach a fight with a spit and win, in whatever aircraft you normally fly when spit killing.

So, tell us what you are flying and as much detail about what you do to win against those pesky spits as possible.

[ink]

I don't approach a spit any different than any other bird, it all depends on initial situation on how I go about destroying it.

the tactics should be basically the same no matter what you are facing, get some offset on the merge so by time you pass each other you are already in your reversal and line up onto his 9-6, if you see he is pulling hard, drop throttle and just pull into him, unless you have a good E advantage, then you wont be able to pull in fast enough...of course this depends on what you are in.

initial E states is very important in deciding what to do, you gotta learn to judge your nme's E...from there it really becomes easy on how you react....

example

your in a slow 51...say 250 or so....spit comes diving down with a massive closer rate you know his E state is much higher then yours, wait until he is about 800 out before you start to maneuver, a fake split S will make him drop his nose even more picking up more speed, making it much harder for him to track you.....try to get below their nose and then make your move, he wont see you do it, and by time he sees where you went, he is playing catch up.

the slower plane most often will turn tighter then the faster plane, very few exceptions to this rule....

don't know if that is helpful, I could look for some films of my merges with spits.

[Oldman731]

example

your in a slow 51...say 250 or so....spit comes diving down with a massive closer rate you know his E state is much higher then yours, wait until he is about 800 out before you start to maneuver, a fake split S will make him drop his nose even more picking up more speed, making it much harder for him to track you.....try to get below their nose and then make your move, he wont see you do it, and by time he sees where you went, he is playing catch up.

This illustrates a greater point:  A spit flown by a newb can be beaten in more-or-less conventional fashion.  A spit flown by a competent pilot won't fall for a trick, though.  In this instance he'll just throttle back a bit so that he doesn't overshoot (spit has superb throttle response) and there he is on your six.  Or he'll let you go if he sees you're going to outrun him.

If you're in a more maneuverable plane than a spit - zekes or Hurri Is on the slow side, Franks on the high side - then you have a chance to lure him into a knife fight.  Again, though, if he's clever he won't do this.  A Frank, at least, can chase him down and is probably the best plane (IMHO!) to be flying if you expect to encounter spits.

If you're in a much faster plane (many are) and have an initial energy advantage, then you can b&z a spitfire, so long as you're very careful not to lose your energy in the process.  This won't work if there are other enemy planes nearby, if you don't have an initial advantage, or if you're already getting sleepy.

- oldman

[ink]

This illustrates a greater point:  A spit flown by a newb can be beaten in more-or-less conventional fashion.  A spit flown by a competent pilot won't fall for a trick, though.  In this instance he'll just throttle back a bit so that he doesn't overshoot (spit has superb throttle response) and there he is on your six.  Or he'll let you go if he sees you're going to outrun him.

If you're in a more maneuverable plane than a spit - zekes or Hurri Is on the slow side, Franks on the high side - then you have a chance to lure him into a knife fight.  Again, though, if he's clever he won't do this.  A Frank, at least, can chase him down and is probably the best plane (IMHO!) to be flying if you expect to encounter spits.

If you're in a much faster plane (many are) and have an initial energy advantage, then you can b&z a spitfire, so long as you're very careful not to lose your energy in the process.  This won't work if there are other enemy planes nearby, if you don't have an initial advantage, or if you're already getting sleepy.

- oldman

A very well flown spit is a rare thing

[Wiley]

A very well flown spit is a rare thing

But still, the tactics you described are really more about beating the pilot, not the plane.  A 'very well' flown spit is a rare thing.  A 'decently' flown spit is still a tough nut to crack IMO.

I approach spits somewhat how Ink describes it in that I generally try to capitalize on the pilot's mistakes moreso than what the plane can do because for the most part, whatever my plane can do in a turnfight it can do better.

I'm interested in this thread as well, as I do alright BnZing spits to death, but I run into real trouble with most of them in a turnfight.  When I run into a spit, I try to keep the fight fast, and use roll rate to my advantage whenever I can on every model other than the 16.

If I'm co-E with a Spixteen, I am generally in trouble unless I'm on the high side of a wide skill gap between me and the pilot.  That's the situation I'm curious about.

Wiley.

[titanic3]

Any spit that isn't a spit16, scissors or E fight them if you have a faster plane.

Against spit16s, either E fight them if and only if you started with an E advantage. If you are equal or slower, throttle back and force an overshoot. Or, if you can outturn them (most can), do it.

Spits are extremely fragile, if you can force just one overshoot (pretty easy due to the monster acceleration), a single burst of .50s or a few cannon hits and they're down.

Against Spit9 and earlier - scissors or E fight.
Against spit14 or 16, turn fight or force overshoots.

[grizz441]

If I know I am fighting a competent spit pilot in the MA before I engage, I have a much better chance of killing him.  If I assume I am fighting the "99%" of spit pilots, then he will probably catch me off guard and kill me.

[ink]

But still, the tactics you described are really more about beating the pilot, not the plane.  A 'very well' flown spit is a rare thing.  A 'decently' flown spit is still a tough nut to crack IMO.

I approach spits somewhat how Ink describes it in that I generally try to capitalize on the pilot's mistakes moreso than what the plane can do because for the most part, whatever my plane can do in a turnfight it can do better.

I'm interested in this thread as well, as I do alright BnZing spits to death, but I run into real trouble with most of them in a turnfight.  When I run into a spit, I try to keep the fight fast, and use roll rate to my advantage whenever I can on every model other than the 16.

If I'm co-E with a Spixteen, I am generally in trouble unless I'm on the high side of a wide skill gap between me and the pilot.  That's the situation I'm curious about.

Wiley.

that's because it is all about beating the pilot, the plane can do nothing on its own, so unless the pilot knows what he is doing the spit is an easy kill.

does not matter what the plane can do.....its what the pilot can make it do that matters....I know before the actual merge if they are good or not.

A good way to figure out how to beat something is to get in it and fly it, learn it so when you meet someone in the air you will know if they can make it do what it can do or not.

 

[Wiley]

that's because it is all about beating the pilot, the plane can do nothing on its own, so unless the pilot knows what he is doing the spit is an easy kill.

I disagree a bit with that statement.  I see what you're getting at, but take an extreme example:  It doesn't matter how good you are, you're not going to beat very many pilots flat turning a 190A8 with a Zeke, you've got to employ something the A8 does better than the Zeke to beat it.

Obviously that's a glaring example, but the same sort of logic applies even as the performance of the two planes gets closer together.  The spixteen is a jack of all trades, kind of like the Ki-84.  They do nothing spectacularly, but most things decently.  Unless you've got something to beat them over the head with, like an E advantage or if they're much faster than you and still trying to turn with you so you have a maneuverability advantage, they're a tough nut to crack.

One of these tours I will probably sit down and try to learn the spixteen like you say.  I agree flying something you have trouble against shows you in pretty short order where its weaknesses are.

Wiley.

[ink]

I disagree a bit with that statement.  I see what you're getting at, but take an extreme example:  It doesn't matter how good you are, you're not going to beat very many pilots flat turning a 190A8 with a Zeke, you've got to employ something the A8 does better than the Zeke to beat it.

Obviously that's a glaring example, but the same sort of logic applies even as the performance of the two planes gets closer together.  The spixteen is a jack of all trades, kind of like the Ki-84.  They do nothing spectacularly, but most things decently.  Unless you've got something to beat them over the head with, like an E advantage or if they're much faster than you and still trying to turn with you so you have a maneuverability advantage, they're a tough nut to crack.

One of these tours I will probably sit down and try to learn the spixteen like you say.  I agree flying something you have trouble against shows you in pretty short order where its weaknesses are.

Wiley.

how can you disagree?  with out the pilot the plane just sits there and don't move

your example is not really a good one, I out flew a zero TnB on the deck....in the D9 or 152 been awhile don't quite remember

was also called a cheater because I out turned and killed 3 Brews slow on the deck in a 3vs1. while in KI

these are rare days when I am on and don't miss my shots...otherwise I normally miss my shots and eventually they drag me down....

it really does come down to the pilot....I have been fighting in these skies for about 7 years....not vulching or ganging....fighting the hoard..nothing but (not to say I have never vulched, but it is a very rare day someone pisses me off to the point I vulch them)..many many talk the talk but cant walk the walk...you see them in the MA surrounded by green guys..or high up on their perch only to come down when they are sure to get a kill.....but here on the boards they are talking about how much they fight

when you attack someone and have four friends with ya that aint no fight..except for the single.

non of this is directed at YOU...just my thoughts.

yes obviously some planes are better, but it takes the knowledge to use that performance...a total noob in the best plane,will get his arse handed to him by a vet in the worst fighter every time.

this is fact, can not be denied....

[Wiley]

your example is not really a good one, I out flew a zero TnB on the deck....in the D9 or 152 been awhile don't quite remember

Are you sure the guy wasn't afk?   As I stated, I'd be pretty shocked if it was done by flat turning, and I didn't say it was completely impossible, only that you're not going to get many guys like that.

a total noob in the best plane,will get his arse handed to him by a vet in the worst fighter every time.

Of course, but in fights between relatively equal average pilots, plane makes a difference.

Wiley.

[FLS]

It doesn't matter how good you are, you're not going to beat very many pilots flat turning a 190A8 with a Zeke,

I'm sorry I missed the part where a good pilot thinks flat turning a 190 vs a Zeke is a good idea. It's only an example if it could really happen. 

If you consider the attributes of your aircraft vs whichever Spitfire is being considered, along with your energy states and the tactical situation, then the question of how to fight it should be pretty obvious. As Ink pointed out, the attributes of the pilot in the Spitfire may not be obvious, and that's where it gets interesting.

[Wiley]

I'm sorry I missed the part where a good pilot thinks flat turning a 190 vs a Zeke is a good idea. It's only an example if it could really happen. 

Well, if the plane doesn't matter, why can't you out flat-turn that Zeke if you're good enough?  The plane dictates the choices you have to make.  Some planes have more options than others.  That's all I'm saying.

If you consider the attributes of your aircraft vs whichever Spitfire is being considered, along with your energy states and the tactical situation, then the question of how to fight it should be pretty obvious. As Ink pointed out, the attributes of the pilot in the Spitfire may not be obvious, and that's where it gets interesting.

Co-E with a P47-D11 vs Spit 16 at 10k, unmolested 1v1 nose on standard cold merge 'duel'.  Pilots of identical skill and familiarity with their plane.  What can the jug do in that situation other than bleed its E and eventually die?

Wiley.

[uptown]

from above 

[Wiley]

from above 

Precisely my issue with Spits.  I can deal with them if I have a club to use on them.  I actually often do better if I'm starting from a LOWER E state than the spit than if I'm co-E.

That's why I'm interested in what one does with a co-E one.

Wiley.