please adjust the 190A8

[Tank-Ace]

Guppy, I'm not 100% sure on the various changes between spitfire Mk IX models, but wasn't it mostly a change of armament, and engines, without any serious increase in weight?


And if I understand the recent posts, we might have an uparmored late model 190A8 weight wise (perhaps without even the actuall protection of the armor) with the engine power of an early model.


Seeing as some 190A8 models weighed significantly more than others, and (again not 100% sure) various spitfire Mk IX models didn't, its incorrect to say definitivly that the situation of the spitfire Mk IX is comperable to that of the 190A8. It MIGHT be, but chances are also decent that its not.

[Guppy35]

Guppy, I'm not 100% sure on the various changes between spitfire Mk IX models, but wasn't it mostly a change of armament, and engines, without any serious increase in weight?


And if I understand the recent posts, we might have an uparmored late model 190A8 weight wise (perhaps without even the actuall protection of the armor) with the engine power of an early model.


Seeing as some 190A8 models weighed significantly more than others, and (again not 100% sure) various spitfire Mk IX models didn't, its incorrect to say definitivly that the situation of the spitfire Mk IX is comperable to that of the 190A8. It MIGHT be, but chances are also decent that its not.

I was reacting to this quote from Babalonian

I try to stay outa these topics now, for personal and (I feel) practical reasons.  I love the 190s, and this boils down into a very ugly personal stew over personal preferences and ponderings about "why does HiTech err on giving us the wimpy and heavy A-8 varient mashup over ANY OTHER (and there were MANY) in HIS game?".  And earlier A8 varient (and lighter) matched with an earlier A8 engine would of been better, or a later airframe with a later powerplant.

The Spit IX would be that same kind of 'mash up" to me. as would the AH Spit V.  Neither are at the top end of their performance capability, but I understand that for the sake of not modeling every last tweak, that there will have to be some give and take.  Can you imagine the whines of the crowd if HTC brought back the 1943 Spit LFVc we had before?  In the AH world at the altitudes where most of the combat is fought, that particular Spit V variant performed better then the Spitfire IX.  That's for real.  If the AH airwar was fought where the AH Spit IX is modeled to perform best, it would have been no contest.  Ahh but remember the whining about that Spit Vc?  Now we've got the very earliest version. 


I just think it becomes a situation where HTC can't win no matter what they do. 

[Wmaker]

And if I understand the recent posts, we might have an uparmored late model 190A8 weight wise (perhaps without even the actuall protection of the armor) with the engine power of an early model.

A-8s initially had their WEP setting at 1.42ata on the deck which was later increased to 1.58ata which is also present in AH.

[Denniss]

Please note that the weights given in the charts on page 1 do not seem right - off by 100kg.
The standard weight of an A-8 with 115l aux fuel tank installed and filled is given as 4391 kg and the A-8/R2 as 4454 kg in other documents.

[Babalonian]

I've thought quite a long time now that A-9 would be a great addition. Considering that all of the 3D-artwork is already made and Greebo/Cactus could do the default skin. The A-8 sees a lot of use and as such the "bang for the buck" of the A-9 would be hard to beat. Kind of like the P-47M.

This was my point.  My experience from watching these boards over the years is that the odds of HTC having modeled a LW plane correctly is about zero based on the LW fans.  There is a vision in players heads of what a LW bird should do, and if it doesn't do it in the MA, then it must be modeled wrong.  I don't see this as much from the fans of other plane sets nearly as much.  If other birds are brought up it's more often going to be by a LW guy who believes the other bird is over modeled.

All I'm seeing so far is that HTC has modeled a general 190A8 variant that is meant to cover a lot of time frame.  Sounds an awful lot like the Spit IX we have in game.  Considering all the different tweaks that went into the Spit IX in the course of 1942-45, it would be impossible to do it completely right.  If you look at what we have now, it's basically the 42 version in the shape of a mid 44 version.  Based on all the tweaks that went into the Spit IX, if we really wanted to grumble about it we could too, but it seems silly since it's meant to cover such a large number of Spit IXs.

The Spit V guys could really wail if they wanted to as they had a 1943 Spitfire LFVc and lost it, to what seemed like the whines about it, going back to a 1941 Spitfire Vb.  Lost the performance and half the ammo load.

One of the reasons I wanted the Spit Vs in the previous scenario was to fly them against 190A5s.  I wanted to see how they matched up in what was not an MA setting but more of a historical setting.   I remember laughing to myself when it played out exactly like the history.  The 190A5s totally outclassed the Spit Vs as they did for real.  The modelling seemed quite accurate under those circumstances.

Considering how often the 190 is brought up, it seems to fall back on that belief that somehow HTC hasn't done the research.  I'm hard pressed to believe they haven't.  But I also don't believe the LW guys will ever be satisfied with it

Considering they added 600 pounds to my 38G, I should be the one complaining.  I decided to just keep pretending it was a real 38G and that I was a real fighter pilot too

 

I think the expectations are just too high for the specific A-8 we have, nothing else is "wrong" or "faulty".  The A-8 we have is an absolute dog in air combat unless you take full caution and care to lighten it up as much as possible.  I would like to see some additions/adjsutments to the A-8 and F-8s weapons and ordnance options, help expand both aircraft's current and designed role.

The A-9 though... well, it's all dreaming.  If it ever gets included, I'm not expecting it to be the best, but I'd hope it gets modeled to be a more competitve as a LWMA fighter than the A-8.

I agree it keeps being brought up as the underlying theme each time, I don't think HT or HTC half-hazardly did anything with initialy modeling the A8 (1-200 pounds?... pu-lease, we can all really find something better to bi!@# about... like the lack of a B-25J )...  the only thing I am left wondering each time though is why it is the latest given example within AH of a radial powered 190, when it's arguabley not.

I think some adjustments to the A-8 and F-8 should be put in the lines, but only with expanding more ordnance options if anything.  And an A-9 though, to chase around the furballs with...  yeah, that would be king someday.

And if I understand the recent posts, we might have an uparmored late model 190A8 weight wise (perhaps without even the actuall protection of the armor) with the engine power of an early model.

As I have come to interpret it - we have an uparmored late model A8 with the engine power of a mid-model.  As the 190-lineup currently sits, it IS the latest radial-powered production example in game ( ). 

[Shuffler]

Really, guppy?  I wish people would think as hard as I try to give honest replys in these threads. (Not trying to single you or SKUZZY out here or anything Guppy, but seriously grindin' some gears.  Try to think of in this thread for longer than just one sentence, please, because I care.) 



OK, seriously, obvious missunderstanding there with my application of the word extreme.

I meant in regards to the exreme of the latest production varient posibile/available in AH.

Many plane lineups in AH do have a ball-parked model for an individual aircraft model's/varient's extreme.

IE:  The K-4, P-47M, F4U-4, Tempest.  All beloved and popular fighters at their extreme, with performances averaged but not at their single given extremes within the model.

TA 152....... and there were only a handfull available during the war and only about 10 actually saw service. This plane is available in game. Not sure why

[Babalonian]

Hi Shuffler, welcome to the radial-powered 190 discussion.


Edit: wait a minute, unless you're trying to intentionaly distract me with a good reason/arguement for the inclusions of a D-11 or 13... I see what you're doing.... 

[Babalonian]

This chart kinda illustrates why I think it would be so neat to see some more (yes, more) late-war 190s.

Highlight the current models we have, pick a couple from inbetween those gaps, and BAM!, a more complete plane-set to those who care (or maybe don't) about the 190 plane set.



Edit: as you can see, our current latest-production radial-engine model representative is waaay in last of the "latest" category.

[Tank-Ace]

As I have come to interpret it - we have an uparmored late model A8 with the engine power of a mid-model.  As the 190-lineup currently sits, it IS the latest radial-powered production example in game ( ).

So in other words, we got shafted.


And I thought the F-8 was later than the A-8 (being based on the A-8, after all).

[Guppy35]

So in other words, we got shafted.


And I thought the F-8 was later than the A-8 (being based on the A-8, after all).

No one got shafted.

Put the 190s up against their Spitfire counterparts.

190A5-Spitfire IX
190A8-Spitfire VIII (wish it was an LFIX but at least the VIII has the same Merlin 66)
190D9-Spitfire XVI (this being essentially the latewar Spitfire LFIXe
Ta152-Spitfire XIV

Looks to be about right doesn't it?

[Ruah]

at least we have the A5. . .thank goodness fo that beauty.

[bustr]

Unless any of you want to tell Hitech here and now you think his and his companie's ability to research performance data for WW2 aricraft is suspect and lacking compaired to your own. I have found over the years HTC has been reasonably on the mark for the product he offers to the background efforts he expends. In the case that any player has been able to provide non-confusing competent data showing a deficiency in his research conclusions, he has never been adverse to investigating it.

If this Fw190-A8 argument is confusing me, you have a problem with how you are trying to persuade Hitech from the start.

It's obvious the A5 turns like a sports car versus the A8 turns like a Dodge Truck. After that what is it you are persuading Hitech is wrong with the A8?

1.} It dosent climb fast enough.
2.} It dosent dive fast enough.
3.} It dosent turn tight enough.
4.} It dosent fly level fast enough.
5.} It's not responsive enough like the A5.

These 5 attributes are the only things that matter once you are holding your joystick in the MA. As long as I can remember there has been an ongoing cry that the A8 is not something enough. So which is it of the 5?

Are you arguing Hitech has not modeled a valid version and you want a specific version that you beleive is sportier or more Uber than is presented in the game? Then specify which one and argue for that. So far all of these arguments sound exactly like a custom performance car owner telling his mechanic the car dosent feel right on the track. Then showing the mechanic design specs for a version of the engine not even in the car. The mechanic can only conclude two things. The car owner is nutz or he really wants a different car all together.

a.) Which version are you persuading Hitech will make you happy?
b.) Which engine and performance model is germain to the A-8, A-8/R2(R8)? That seems to be our gun packages escpecialy the R8 armor weight.
c.) Do any of you have the testing specifications for all of these versions in the list below?
d.) Or are you attempting to convice Hitech to combine attributes to sport up the A8 because some existed versus his choice of A-8 and R2(R8) versions?

FW 190 A-8  .....03.44  Fighter     
FW 190 A-8/U1   .........Two-seat trainer and high-speed liason aircraft     
FW 190 A-8/U3   .........Upper component of Mistel     
FW 190 A-8/U11   .......Torpedo-bomber     
FW 190 A-8/R1   .........Two underwing WB 151 containers with four MG 151 20 mm cannon     
FW 190 A-8/R2  04.44  Bomber-destroyer with two outboard MK 108 30 mm cannon     
FW 190 A-8/R3   .........Bomber-destroyer with two underwing MK 103 30 mm cannon     
FW 190 A-8/R4  12.44  BMW 801 TS and engine boosting system   
FW 190 A-8/R5   .........Engine boosting system     
FW 190 A-8/R6  04.44  Two WGr 21 underwing rocket launchers     
FW 190 A-8/R7   .........Sturmjäger with additional internal and external armour plating     
FW 190 A-8/R8  11.44  Sturmjäger with additional internal and external armour plating and outboard MK 103 30mm cannon     
FW 190 A-8/R11   ........Dirty weather fighter with BMW 801 TU/TS     
FW 190 A-8/R12   ........Combination of R2 and R11 with BMW 801 D-2     
FW 190 A-8D/NL   .......Higher emergency power 

[Guppy35]

How bout we make HTC a deal.  You guys can have that 190A9 if I can have the Spit XII?

Not sure what's in it for HTC, other then no more 190 complaints, but it's worth a shot

[Wmaker]

How bout we make HTC a deal.  You guys can have that 190A9 if I can have the Spit XII?

Not sure what's in it for HTC, other then no more 190 complaints, but it's worth a shot

I'd say that there's just as much in it for HTC as there was with the addition of P-47M. IE. quite heavily used fighter with rather small amount of development work needed.

Guess what I'm not quite sure about? That is, why you weren't demanding your Spit XII when that P-47M was added but do your best to remember to suggest this "deal" of yours most times when addition of a 190/190 variant comes up?

[Tank-Ace]

No one got shafted.

Put the 190s up against their Spitfire counterparts.

190A5-Spitfire IX
190A8-Spitfire VIII (wish it was an LFIX but at least the VIII has the same Merlin 66)
190D9-Spitfire XVI (this being essentially the latewar Spitfire LFIXe
Ta152-Spitfire XIV

Looks to be about right doesn't it?

If the Spitifre VIII is an up-armored late model with the engine power of a mid-model, then we have nothing to complain about.

But if we have an uparmored late model A-8 (perhaps without even the protection from that extra weight), with less engine power than the model we have represented weight wise, and the spitfire Mk VIII has the correct engine for its model, then we DO have something to complain about.