A Little more Realism (88s and Storch)

[R 105]

 I find the 88s very near worthless myself. While I have never traversed a German 88 I have traversed a US 3inch 50 (75mm) anti aircraft gun that the Coast Guard was still using. It is a very similar gun to the 88 and it will turn about 3 times faster than the 88MM in Aces High. I do wish our 88s had a ground sight for the AP rounds then it would be a great addition to the game.

[Pand]

Aces High 2, we simulate WW2 EQUIPMENT not WW2 itself. Most of their "historical uses" were improvised, 88's were AA guns, and yet they were the primary AT gun. German 110 pilots in the invasion of Norway, actually ditched their 110's in crash landings, took the guns out of the rear mountings, and stormed an airfield to make way for a paradrop.

Just because "it wasn't how it was done" does not necessarily mean it couldn't be done. A squad of armed pilots from a downed bomber, if they had scavanged a gun and some ammo from the wreck, COULD feasibly hold off a unit of trained infantryman. Though that isn't factored into AH, no one came running with a whistle saying "YOU CANT DO THAT"

In AH2, the aircraft (besides the Brewster, and Dale PLEASE FIX THAT THING), the flight models are generally considered accurate. We use this "simulator" not to see what "they did" we use it to see "what they COULD THEORETICALLY DO"... and have a lot of fun while doing so.

"War is terrible, and a game is fun, to compare either to eachother is an insult to both" - Dale "HiTech

You're right, people 'spawning in' with storches and bailing out to kill 'defenseless' troops is fun!  Getting killed by a lucky shot (which happens quite often) 5K -10K from an enemy base in a fighter, is some of the most fun I've had in years!

It's like you didn't even read the thread all the way through while you prepared your response 3 weeks later, keep drinkin that HTC kool-aid!

[lyric1]

 the blatantly unrealistic use of 88s and ground bailing pilots

[lyric1]

1.  When the 88's were added to this game, I imagine it was intended for attacking enemy bombers coming in, and I'm all for that.  Unfortunately, the 88s are consistently being used to down fighters going 400+ mph and killing troops in the silk over town.  Not sure how accurate these actions are if we compare them to the historical use of the 88's.

"Through the small rectangular glass windows behind each man in the C47, ominous tell-tale grey and black puffs of smoke could be seen by the Para’s. This was German Anti-Aircraft fire from 88mm guns on the ground".



"Up above him, the C-47 spewed out Paratroopers, static lines engaging their parachutes.

Moss was in trouble, turning and twisting his rigging lines so much that his canopy is almost closed.

Bullets whizzed past him from the ground and anti-aircraft shells continued to explode all around".





I would say that there would be a very strong chance at least a few of the paratroopers might have got hit here?


http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ww2peopleswar/stories/42/a1979742.shtml

As far as shooting fighters with 88's.

I would say yes why wouldn't they?

If you look at some facts of the 88's they could traverse much faster than what we have in game. Why would they have the option to turn faster unless it was to attack faster moving targets.



As far as the 88's are concerned consider yourself lucky that they seem to be under modeled in AHII.



http://www.lonesentry.com/manuals/88mm-antiaircraft-gun/index.html

[Pand]

"Through the small rectangular glass windows behind each man in the C47, ominous tell-tale grey and black puffs of smoke could be seen by the Para’s. This was German Anti-Aircraft fire from 88mm guns on the ground".



"Up above him, the C-47 spewed out Paratroopers, static lines engaging their parachutes.

Moss was in trouble, turning and twisting his rigging lines so much that his canopy is almost closed.

Bullets whizzed past him from the ground and anti-aircraft shells continued to explode all around".





I would say that there would be a very strong chance at least a few of the paratroopers might have got hit here?


http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ww2peopleswar/stories/42/a1979742.shtml

As far as shooting fighters with 88's.

I would say yes why wouldn't they?

If you look at some facts of the 88's they could traverse much faster than what we have in game. Why would they have the option to turn faster unless it was to attack faster moving targets.

(Image removed from quote.)

As far as the 88's are concerned consider yourself lucky that they seem to be under modeled in AHII.



http://www.lonesentry.com/manuals/88mm-antiaircraft-gun/index.html

Sigh, when a 'platinum' member posts, almost always it shows they spend more time on the forums than actually in the game.  What is your in-game ID so I may have a frame of reference?

[lyric1]

Sigh, when a 'platinum' member posts, almost always it shows they spend more time on the forums than actually in the game.  What is your in-game ID so I may have a frame of reference?

So now that we have established I am who I say I am.

I have provided 88mm facts.

I have provided a link from paratrooper's that were shot at by 88mm's.

So find me facts that contradict my supporting evidence.

[Pand]

So now that we have established I am who I say I am.

It all makes sense now---- don't take your precious 88mm away!!!!

Someone help me with the math:  If total Sortie time is 2 days, 3 hours... that's  51 hours of game time.



And total time in a fighter/attacker is 17 hours, and 19 hours in a a vehicle, totaling 36 hours.



Which means you spent 15 hours (30% of game time) as a gunner, and 34 hours (66% of game time) on the ground.   
Hey it's your $15--- to each his own I guess, but at least it enlightens me as to how you became a 'platinum member' 

Unfortunately the times I killed you in a fighter were far from memorable, just another LA7 and another Spit16 down.




To summarize,

1.  I think the wishlist forum should be read only so HTC can get some ideas for potential changes to the game, and not some pissing contest which almost every post becomes.
2.  If a player can kill another player, there should be a kill awarded when they are destroyed (ie. a soft gun, etc).  Keep your 88mm but give me a kill when I kill you, and give you a death when you die.

Post deleted due to rule #2 and rule #4. 

<S>

[lyric1]

It all makes sense now---- don't take your precious 88mm away!!!!

Someone help me with the math:  If total Sortie time is 2 days, 3 hours... that's  51 hours of game time.
(Image removed from quote.)


And total time in a fighter/attacker is 17 hours, and 19 hours in a a vehicle, totaling 36 hours.
(Image removed from quote.)


Which means you spent 15 hours (30% of game time) as a gunner, and 34 hours (66% of game time) on the ground.  
Hey it's your $15--- to each his own I guess, but at least it enlightens me as to how you became a 'platinum member'  

Unfortunately the times I killed you in a fighter were far from memorable, just another LA7 and another Spit16 down.
(Image removed from quote.)



To summarize,

1.  I think the wishlist forum should be read only so HTC can get some ideas for potential changes to the game, and not some pissing contest which almost every post becomes.
2.  If a player can kill another player, there should be a kill awarded when they are destroyed (ie. a soft gun, etc).  Keep your 88mm but give me a kill when I kill you, and give you a death when you die.

Post deleted due to rule #2 and rule #4.  

<S>

Actually I don't use the 88's very much at all 95% of those kills would be with the 37mm manned ack.

That aside you asked for historical precedents for the Storch & 88's.

I provided a couple of points that prove that there is some realism with the 88's & AHII.

I am sorry you now don't like the fact that there is facts to contradict what you feel should be right & in fact what is right.

The rest of your posting on my stats has nothing to do with the facts I have posted to your question.

So again I ask provide some documentation to counter what I have posted in regards to the 88mm's.

You want a change but have no facts to warrant a change for the 88's.

Did you even read the 88mm link I posted to see what that gun actually could do compared to what we have in AHII?

I think not.

So instead of looking at my stats go & read facts about the very thing you want changed & learn something.

[wil3ur]

Dear HiTech,

Please disable Anti Aircraft guns from being able to shoot at Airplanes.  This is not historically accurate.

The 88MM AAA Gun was only used as a paperweight and decoration piece for airfields.  the AAA Designation of the gun was actually to fool the allies into thinking the Tiger was a heavily armored Ostwind...

I will be posting the historical merits of removing bombs from bomber flights in an upcoming post.

Stay tuned!

[Pand]

Actually I don't use the 88's very much at all 95% of those kills would be with the 37mm manned ack.

That aside you asked for historical precedents for the Storch & 88's.

I provided a couple of points that prove that there is some realism with the 88's & AHII.

I am sorry you now don't like the fact that there is facts to contradict what you feel should be right & in fact what is right.

The rest of your posting on my stats has nothing to do with the facts I have posted to your question.

So again I ask provide some documentation to counter what I have posted in regards to the 88mm's.

You want a change but have no basis of facts to warrant a change for the 88's.

Did you even read the 88mm link I posted to see what that gun actually could do compared to what we have in AHII?

I think not.

So instead of looking at my stats go & read facts about the very thing you want changed & learn something.

I thought I was clear in my summary, but apparently not... I'll reference it for you:

To summarize,

1.  I think the wishlist forum should be read only so HTC can get some ideas for potential changes to the game, and not some pissing contest which almost every post becomes.
2.  If a player can kill another player, there should be a kill awarded when they are destroyed (ie. a soft gun, etc).  Keep your 88mm but give me a kill when I kill you, and give you a death when you die.

Bottom line, bailing out of storches to shoot 'defenseless' troops and using 88's primarily on fighters is no different that the dweeb that ups a formation of Lanc's to drop 39 1000lb bombs on a tank.  Either way you look at it, it's just plain shoddy.  If that's what the gaming community wants, then they have their wish and Aces High is perfect as is!

[Karnak]

Does dropping a bomb on the bunker kill bailed pilots waiting for the troops?

[lyric1]

I thought I was clear in my summary, but apparently not... I'll reference it for you:

Bottom line, bailing out of storches to shoot 'defenseless' troops and using 88's primarily on fighters is no different that the dweeb that ups a formation of Lanc's to drop 39 1000lb bombs on a tank.  Either way you look at it, it's just plain shoddy.  If that's what the gaming community wants, then they have their wish and Aces High is perfect as is!

If you want to get a kill on 88's & soft guns fine.

Issue perk points for the soft gun then when an aircraft is shot down by the gunner.

The only reason you don't get a kill awarded is because you just got perks for taking out the gun.

Make me use perk points to shoot at aircraft from a soft gun I would do that as well.

I never commented on the Storch as I have no facts to say yay or nay about it.

As far as shooting fighters with 88's it did happen so here is a link that briefly explains that.

http://donmooreswartales.com/2010/03/28/robert-grace/

If you want the 88's not to shoot at you then do what these guys did & be historically correct.

http://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20120119/articles/120119394?p=1&tc=pg

Look we all have our pet peeves in the game & this is clearly one of yours.

You made a request under the assumption that these things didn't happen with the 88's.

Problem for you is they did.

[Pand]

If you want to get a kill on 88's & soft guns fine.

Issue perk points for the soft gun then when an aircraft is shot down by the gunner.

I'm ok with both of these as long as the soft gunner takes a death as well.

The only reason you don't get a kill awarded is because you just got perks for taking out the gun.

I get the same amount of perks regardless if a person is in a soft gun or not when it is destroyed.  It is much more dangerous to attack a gun with a real person in it than an auto gun any day.  I'm looking for simplicity, if it's controlled by a person, then a kill is awarded and a death applied.

Make me use perk points to shoot at aircraft from a soft gun I would do that as well.

I love the idea but don't think anyone will go for that

I never commented on the Storch as I have no facts to say yay or nay about it.

I thought you had mentioned the 110's ditching and running with the rear guns was a reference about the storch.  Do you agree or disagree with my comments on the storch? 

As far as shooting fighters with 88's it did happen so here is a link that briefly explains that.

http://donmooreswartales.com/2010/03/28/robert-grace/

If you want the 88's not to shoot at you then do what these guys did & be historically correct.

http://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20120119/articles/120119394?p=1&tc=pg

Look we all have our pet peeves in the game & this is clearly one of yours.

You made a request under the assumption that these things didn't happen with the 88's.

Problem for you is they did.

Great article, I enjoyed the read; however, a quote from the article: 
  - “German 88 gunners never shot at individual fighter planes. When our fighters were attacking, the Germans would put down a layer of flak at 8,000 feet, 7,000 feet and 5,000 feet. We had to fly through it,” Grace recalled.

It's annoying as hell to have Friendly 88's firing into a small furball 5-10K away from their field.  88s would not have done this because of the potential of hitting friendly aircraft.  If we're going to be ridiculous about the equipment, then even it out with a potential death and killshooter like all the other rides.

[Pand]

Does dropping a bomb on the bunker kill bailed pilots waiting for the troops?

I'd love to get the official answer on this as well Karnak.  

In my experience the *blast* damage from bombs, rockets, and (gasp!) shore battery shells, don't seem to hurt the troops; however, I think you can actually kill a troop if you hit him directly with the projectile itself.  Bullets seem to be the only effective means of killing them because there is such a large spread to score a hit.

[Karnak]

Pand, I'd be up for testing it if you like.

I could bail out of a Storch and sit in a known maproom while you bombed it.

I'm at work now, but I'll be home by 20:00 CDT.