Author Topic: Upping perk cost of 163?  (Read 1716 times)

Offline Ack-Ack

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 25260
      • FlameWarriors
Re: Upping perk cost of 163?
« Reply #30 on: April 23, 2012, 11:38:50 AM »
Komet is kind of a non-issue nowadays. The days of the great bomber squads and huge HQ runs are about over. My bombing now is all tactical cause the strat game is dead.

The Komet was never an issue to begin with.

ack-ack
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
Elite Top Aces +1 Mexican Official Squadron Song

Offline clerick

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1742
Re: Upping perk cost of 163?
« Reply #31 on: April 23, 2012, 11:41:53 AM »
Hold it!

Your honour, the prosecution is asking for evidence in a matter which they have a personal grudge. I would like to request that his objection be stricken from the log on those grounds.

Forums: "And what grounds are those?"

Take that!

"In my experience it is usually those most deserving who won't ask", this was a statement by the prosecution previously explaining his anecdotal summary of a situation, though a different one. It shows he clearly subscribes to the idea of experience and anecdotes as solid base for an arguement. It must be noted that the defence agrees with his idea and approach to situations, but thinks that it would serve everyone best to trust other people's experience as well!

Forums: "Hmm... I see where your going with this, any comments from the prosecution?"


Seems like its your turn, how bout some music for the mood?
 :D


Go go go go go!!!


There is a difference between using anecdotal evidence to put an unquantifiable argument into some perspective and using them to provide proof when hard data is readily and easiy available.

nenner :P

Offline VonMessa

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11922
Re: Upping perk cost of 163?
« Reply #32 on: April 23, 2012, 11:43:02 AM »
I disagree.

The absolute majority of the time, 163's are not an issue at all. If there is a "decline (...) in general around the map", it's not the Komet's fault because it doesn't even appear. Bombers don't even bomb the strats on large maps with the 163 bases many sectors away, not even under prime conditions when the enemy strats are only 2 sectors away with a clear path of approach (as one could witness again last night on Ozkansas).

And for bombing HQ's, the 163's aren't "runing that" either. The main reason why HQ raids are undertaken so rarely is resupply. Usually The HQ is back up before the attackers have finished their "WTFG!" on country channel. Players can cope with fly one hour and being finally massacred by the enemy, but having their efforts totally made void before they typed ".ef" from the chute is the true major turn-off.


And for 163's ruining conventional fight's... how often happens that? Again, on most maps fighters don't come even close to ever see a 163. Only on some small maps (namely uterus & mindanao) frontlines come close enough, but then a player can still chose simply not to fly there. The Komet is pretty much rnage limited, ya know?  
For the record, in all of 2011, the Me 163 was responsible for 0.13% of all fighter deaths (0.82% for bombers). With one in thousand fighters getting shot down by a 163, it doesn't look like a lot of fights had been ruined ;)

How dare you use facts  :furious
Braümeister und Schmutziger Hund von JG11


We are all here because we are not all there.

Offline Ruah

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1083
Re: Upping perk cost of 163?
« Reply #33 on: April 23, 2012, 01:37:16 PM »
I think the 163 is fine as is - by the time you see it as a proper fighter the opposing perk eny is already super low, and if you are bombing the enemy hq, then you are already deep in enemy territory and deal with it.

plus, its a rare bird for the most part. . .

of all the things to cry about - the 163 perk cost is not one of them imo.

Kommando Nowotny
I/JG 77, 2nd Staffel
Mediterranean Maelstrom
HORRIDO

Offline Volron

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5805
Re: Upping perk cost of 163?
« Reply #34 on: April 23, 2012, 07:10:25 PM »
It's stationed back next to the HQ and serves in it's role of HQ defender like it should.  If the Capital happens to be within range of it, then so be it.  Think of the Capital as Berlin then. :aok  All in all, I will say leave the 163 exactly where it's at.  If you fly in 163 territory, then you should be ready for them.  Anytime I see a darbar in a nearby sector, or in the same sector and I'm in 163 territory, I always expect it to be one.  If I get greased, so be it.  "Do a better job of gunning next time...", I'll tell myself.  If I scare him off or shoot him down, "Woo Hoo!". :x  Still gotta fly home. :bhead   :)

However, I generally try to get at least 1 or 2 other people to join me on a bomb run if I'm going to venture into 163 territory.  I know going alone, my chances are slim at best if I'm intercepted by 163's.


This is almost like complaining about the neighbors dog tearing up your pant leg because you were in his yard, pissing on his gnomes. :D
Quote from: hitech
Wow I find it hard to believe it has been almost 38 days since our last path. We should have release another 38 versions by now  :bhead
HiTech
Quote from: Pyro
Quote from: Jolly
What on Earth makes you think that i said that sir?!
My guess would be scotch.

Offline bustr

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 12436
Re: Upping perk cost of 163?
« Reply #35 on: April 24, 2012, 01:42:30 AM »
I could never understand the bomber scoring system related to strategic objects. Or strategic objects and their worth to the game culture since only Hitech and Pyro seem to be about the only people  fully aware of the real impact to the overall country getting its strategic objects whacked if the monumental effort is accomplished completely. Whacking the factories and then the HQ en totality. What is the result?? 6 hours of delayed rebuilding of country wide objects? What does that mean to fighter jocks? It should really mean something if they want to win the war. 6 hours of delayed regeneration means the enemy is at your mercy supposidly to quickly grab you 20% of his feilds. But, the fighter jocks on some maps can roll the map in 3-4 hours by hanging together and rolling 20% of the 2 other countries feilds. How many bombers and how many sorties and how long per sortie does it take to fully whack the strats and HQ?

The more monumental effort seems to be spent bombing short term targets that give near emidiate feedback to the personal need for validation of the bomber pilots bombing efforts becasue airfeilds and other bases can be taken minutes after a successful drop. Rather than wasting all of the time mounting an effort against the strat and HQ possibly ended by a croch rocket. Comes down to the emidiate payoff and what a players time is worth in his own mind for the fun he wants out of this game. It sounds like bomber pilots are voting that they are not being payed enough for their time to keep playing WW2 strategic bomber force.

If you want the cities/factories and HQ bombed to achive the master affect outlined by Hitech to the targeted country, pay all of the pilots dropping the bombs not in perks but in B29's, 262's or Tempests for making the effort. Not damage points or a few perks. Pay them for the time it's costing them just to get whacked by a kid in a 50 perk croch rocket. It's the old business adage that paying people what an effort is worth will keep them making the effort becasue they are being valued and recognised for their time invested. Fighter jocks can count almost immediate results per con killed perk farming. This is a very short investment in time coupled with near continuous fun vulching the same airfeild the bomber pilot is earning a pittence for flying over. Bomber pilots have to invest copius amounts of time for a small possible return on that investment. If you pay bomber pilots for their time they will make sure to earn those rewards. Who wouldn't if they were given a perk ride for the minimum amount of damage to the target.

If you are worried about "Milk Farming" only offer it during prime time 3-4 hours a night when enough players are online to put up a defence that makes the bomber pilot earn his perk ride reward.
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline Lusche

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23939
      • Last.FM Profile
Re: Upping perk cost of 163?
« Reply #36 on: April 24, 2012, 03:15:11 AM »
I could never understand the bomber scoring system related to strategic objects. Or strategic objects and their worth to the game culture since only Hitech and Pyro seem to be about the only people  fully aware of the real impact to the overall country getting its strategic objects whacked if the monumental effort is accomplished completely. Whacking the factories and then the HQ en totality. What is the result?? 6 hours of delayed rebuilding of country wide objects?


If results would be only that massive ;)

If you could manage to smash the City and the factories totally (=0%), resupplyable objects on the bases would have a maximum downtime of 2 hours. 6 hours is only the downtime of the city itself.
Of course ever since whe went to the new strats, I have never seenj anyone pull that off.


For the record we were doing a B-29 strat raid yesterday, with me going ahead and killing the City early. Result: City was down to 27%, and the factories between 30% and 70%. One of the best efforts I have seen in a long time.
45 minutes later (I wasn't even back to the strats in a Mossie XVI!), the factories had regenerated.
Steam: DrKalv
E:D Snailman

In November 2025, Lusche will return for a 20th anniversary tour. Get your tickets now!

Offline bustr

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 12436
Re: Upping perk cost of 163?
« Reply #37 on: April 24, 2012, 03:18:52 PM »
So why didn't you and all of your friends keep saddeling up and going back until the job was finished? Why was this activity between yourself and your freinds an exception to normal game play rather than a rule? In WW2 the rule was to keep going back untill the job was done.

How many players would keep going back if on landing successfully they were given a choice of 1-B29, 1-Ar234, 1-Mossi16, 2-262, or 3-Tempest becasue they whacked a big portion of a factory or completely dropped the HQ? How many new bomber pilots would try at least a single sortie a night if the minimum payoff for destroying even a single building and landing successfully was 1-Tempest or 1-CHog?

Numbers in a game other than if you are in the hoard with 60 guys feeling safe are meaningless to many players. Just like this age we are in is a visual communication age. Images in the game have a stronger meaning than statistical numbers to the majority. Lusche you ever wondered why your stat numbers in raw form always cause your audience to request your excellent colored graphs? Bombing the strat and HQ is time consuming, boring, and not garunteed to pay you much for that personal expenditure of time you can never get back versus the level of fun involved. The fighter jock in the 50 perk croch rocket is getting more fun for his time invested at a better conversion rate when he whacks all of your bombers for 5 minutes effort.

So offer bomber pilots something tangable that they already value to make the effort to be a bomber force in the game. We are not in an Airforce that we have to follow orders to the death. We are in a pseudo free market exchange system. You want players to play strategic bomber airforce? Pay them what its worth for the amount of time it takes from using all of that time elsewhere in the game having fun.

These are examples and rewards based on "One" mission only.
1.) If you fly bombers all the way to an untouched HQ by yourself and completely flatten it, and survive to land at a freindly base, you will earn 3-B29.

2.) If you flatten an untouched small airfeild, FH, BH, VH, Radar, ammo, fuel, troops and land at a freindly feild you get 1-262.

3.) If you sink an untouched CV and land at a freindly feild you get 1-CHog.

4.) If you completey flatten an untouched GV base and land at a freindly feild you get 1-Tiger Tank.

5.) If you are part of a multi bomber mission that hits the strat, touched or untouched, every pilot who's bombs cause object destroyed messages in their text buffer and lands at a freindly base earns 1-262. If the mission 100% flattens an untouched strat all pilots whos bombs caused object destroyed messages in their text buffer and lands at a freindly base earns 3-B29.

6.) If you are part of a multi bomber mission that hits an untouched HQ but does not 100% destroy it, every pilot whos bombs cause object destroyed messages in their text buffer and lands at a freindly feild earns 1-Ar234 or 1-262. If the untouched HQ is 100% flattened all pilots whos bombs caused object destroyed messages in the text buffer and lands at a freindly feild earn 3-Ar234 or 3-Mossi16 or 3-262. Followup bomber raids on a partialy damaged HQ, for object damaged messages generation via your bombs and lands at a freindly base earn 1-Tempest.

Pay the defenders in perk rides.

1.) For every 2-boxes of bombers destroyed while defending the HQ or strat in the sector of the HQ or strat you earn 1-Tempest.

2.) For every 3-boxes of bombers destroyed while defending the HQ or strat in the sector of the HQ or strat you earn 1-262.

3.) Or pay fighter jocks the above any time anywhere if they land that many bomber scalps in one sortie if this reward system for bombers is implimented and bombers become a more potent factor in the game. This may also stop guys from upping bomber boxes on capped airfields.

What has more meaning?

A. You look at your fighter perks and it shows 2000?

B. You look at your Perked Ride bank account and shows you earned:

2-Tempest
23-Spit14
5-Me262
3-Ar234
3-B29
20-F4U-C
25-Tiger

C. Maybe you can earn both and convert the Perked Ride account back to Perks on a conversion rate if you need a quick 262 and your Perk Ride account is empty of 262 while your perks are below a single 262 price. Say 3-Tempest in the Perked Ride account for the instant perk price of 1-Me262. Or 5- CHog or 6-spit14.
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline Reaper90

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3322
Re: Upping perk cost of 163?
« Reply #38 on: April 24, 2012, 03:20:51 PM »
Don't mess with the 163 perk cost. If you wanna do anything, make it so you have about a 30% chance of exploding in a huge fireball on the runway as soon as you spawn.  :O
Floyd
'Murican dude in a Brit Squad flying Russian birds, drinking Canadian whiskey

Offline Lusche

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23939
      • Last.FM Profile
Re: Upping perk cost of 163?
« Reply #39 on: April 24, 2012, 03:33:44 PM »
So why didn't you and all of your friends keep saddeling up and going back until the job was finished? Why was this activity between yourself and your freinds an exception to normal game play rather than a rule? In WW2 the rule was to keep going back untill the job was done.


Because this one mission alone took about 2 hours flight time, and for some odd reason it's difficult to convince players to work for like 4-6 hours like that. ;)
On top of that, it's difficult to "finish the job" when your results are basically cancelled out by that time you are landing. Even if we had taken down the city to 100%, which is extremely difficult to achieve even with a big number of players (actually the less was down to less than 30% because I was working it for ~3 hours when the factories were bomberd), the factories whould have stayed down for only 2 hours. Which means that we should have done that raids ad infinitum. Again, coupled with a extreme subtle effect on the arena itself, it's very hard to find any players flying B-29 sorties for hour after hour without a break...
Steam: DrKalv
E:D Snailman

In November 2025, Lusche will return for a 20th anniversary tour. Get your tickets now!

Offline bustr

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 12436
Re: Upping perk cost of 163?
« Reply #40 on: April 24, 2012, 04:20:49 PM »
Then they should be payed for thier valuble personal time for getting bombs on the target and surviving to land.
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline Lusche

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23939
      • Last.FM Profile
Re: Upping perk cost of 163?
« Reply #41 on: April 24, 2012, 04:37:50 PM »
I have to correct myself, according to arena table max downtime for the factories is 3 hours.
But still, all our damage was gone before an hour had passed, even with City at less than 30%
Steam: DrKalv
E:D Snailman

In November 2025, Lusche will return for a 20th anniversary tour. Get your tickets now!

Offline Butcher

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5323
Re: Upping perk cost of 163?
« Reply #42 on: April 25, 2012, 08:05:27 AM »
163's are a non issue, as Lusche explained - same applies for HQ - every time i see HQ down a dozen C-47s up to resupply it in a matter of minutes.

This is why a "new" strat system should be made.
JG 52

Offline Torquila

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 564
Re: Upping perk cost of 163?
« Reply #43 on: April 25, 2012, 09:22:05 AM »
Heres a practical, real example which might help some people here understand this a little better.

- Imagine 163s enabled at front fields only. How would that effect the mentalities/culture of the current status quo?
« Last Edit: April 25, 2012, 09:26:45 AM by Torquila »

Offline Rich52

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 868
Re: Upping perk cost of 163?
« Reply #44 on: April 25, 2012, 09:44:46 AM »
Years ago I could name a couple dozen very skilled bomber hunters. But now? There are very few. No doubt there are even fewer skilled 163 jocks nowadays.

I hardly bomb anymore and my gunnery skills have eroded bad. Still, I cant believe the overall Lack of skill by the majority of the player base in how they come into bombers. So with all this as it is it makes me even less motivated to strike deep into Das Komet ramjet territory. Its a long ways to fly just to get some kid to fly into your expensive B-29.
Yes, your on "Ignore"