Author Topic: 506FG/457 FS P51D angled wing lines.  (Read 9558 times)

Offline colmbo

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Re: 506FG/457 FS P51D angled wing lines.
« Reply #15 on: May 25, 2012, 07:08:36 PM »
You guys sure those lines are for dive bombing reference?  I'm not seeing how they could help.  Markings on side of canopy would line up with horizon for reference, those marks on top of wing won't work in that manner.
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Offline Megalodon

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Re: 506FG/457 FS P51D angled wing lines.
« Reply #16 on: May 27, 2012, 12:00:37 PM »
The marks were 10 degrees separation from 10 to 50 degrees and I believe they were used for the rockets.

I posted about this before but I can't remember the plane  :old:

I think it was a pac 51 that I found looking up 29's.

Oh Yes I remember now ... it was while arguing with Tiff about the tail strips of the 457th :)



458th birds


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« Last Edit: May 27, 2012, 02:26:07 PM by Megalodon »
Okay..Add 2 Country's at once, Australia and France next plane update Add ...CAC Boomerang and the Dewoitine D.520

Offline Guppy35

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Re: 506FG/457 FS P51D angled wing lines.
« Reply #17 on: May 29, 2012, 01:53:08 AM »
Must have been bombs too as McKennons bird and this one don't have rocket rails.

I knew I'd seen a 364th bird with the stripes too.  Must be right after the war ended as it has the call letters under the left wing.
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Offline oakranger

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Re: 506FG/457 FS P51D angled wing lines.
« Reply #18 on: May 29, 2012, 02:31:40 AM »
OK, how do they use them while dive bomb?
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Offline FLS

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Re: 506FG/457 FS P51D angled wing lines.
« Reply #19 on: May 29, 2012, 02:48:38 PM »
I don't see how they could have been used for bombs or rockets.  They seem to use the wing 3/9 line as 0 degrees.

So when do you need to know that something is X degrees ahead of your wing line?

Offline Babalonian

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Re: 506FG/457 FS P51D angled wing lines.
« Reply #20 on: May 29, 2012, 07:31:43 PM »
I recommend flying a mustang in AH, as it's the plane we seem to be talking about here in example, level and just above ground level, then at 2k, then at 5k then at 10, 15 and even 20k just to make the point.  The higher the altitude you fly above the ground/earth, the lower said horizon of said ground/earthenly object will apear, relative to you.  Then, I want you to particularly note about where the horizon sits, from your visual perspective, to your wing at ~7k.  Nose down to 30-degrees AoA, wings level, and look out to your horizon.  Is it parallel to where a guage would be on yor canopy, or if you had lines drawn on the same wing your now pretending to see clearly through to see the edge of the horizon?


Proper terminoligy would be glide bombing I believe, as with dive bombing you're directly or nearly directly above the target. 

And the lines, on canopy or wing would rarely "line-up" unless you had pre-calculated precisely and taken into account your height/line of sight (which even for the most consistent of pilots would change rather drasticly depending if you had just or are about to repack your parachute, mission clothing, etc..) and also consistently came in at the same altitude to your target every time, what you're doing is observing, at an offset, a paralleling line to the horizon.


Also, keep in mind, these were aids for experienced/trained/practiced pilots, not novices simpley thrown into the pit (which is arguabley most of us AH players).  Achieving a 0, 45 or 90 degree angle, or acuratley assesing you were at such a rudimentry angle, isn't nearly as hard as 30, 50, 60 or 25 that these guys were trying to achieve or at least acuratley observe to then compensate. (in particular, shallow angled dives).


I must honestly admit though (unless you're the jolly green giant, sitting ontop a fresh packed chute, crusing at a mystical 120k when initiating your shallow-angle dive), the the first few imediate lines, closest to the fuselage, I can only imagine them as being useful if you were comming in a steep-banked dive and had a wing high against the horizon or are more likely purely asthestic.

Also, don't forget we have the fortune in AH of always having clear skies and unlimited visibility.  Finding the horizon, clearly, is easy and can be seen out to a far distance.  Add some cloud/weather though in AH, and you fly/maneuver more off instruments than visual references/ques.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2012, 07:39:00 PM by Babalonian »
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Offline FLS

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Re: 506FG/457 FS P51D angled wing lines.
« Reply #21 on: May 29, 2012, 08:41:46 PM »
I recommend flying a mustang in AH, as it's the plane we seem to be talking about here in example, level and just above ground level, then at 2k, then at 5k then at 10, 15 and even 20k just to make the point.  The higher the altitude you fly above the ground/earth, the lower said horizon of said ground/earthenly object will apear, relative to you.  Then, I want you to particularly note about where the horizon sits, from your visual perspective, to your wing at ~7k.  Nose down to 30-degrees AoA, wings level, and look out to your horizon.  Is it parallel to where a guage would be on yor canopy, or if you had lines drawn on the same wing your now pretending to see clearly through to see the edge of the horizon?


Proper terminoligy would be glide bombing I believe, as with dive bombing you're directly or nearly directly above the target. 

And the lines, on canopy or wing would rarely "line-up" unless you had pre-calculated precisely and taken into account your height/line of sight (which even for the most consistent of pilots would change rather drasticly depending if you had just or are about to repack your parachute, mission clothing, etc..) and also consistently came in at the same altitude to your target every time, what you're doing is observing, at an offset, a paralleling line to the horizon.


Also, keep in mind, these were aids for experienced/trained/practiced pilots, not novices simpley thrown into the pit (which is arguabley most of us AH players).  Achieving a 0, 45 or 90 degree angle, or acuratley assesing you were at such a rudimentry angle, isn't nearly as hard as 30, 50, 60 or 25 that these guys were trying to achieve or at least acuratley observe to then compensate. (in particular, shallow angled dives).


I must honestly admit though (unless you're the jolly green giant, sitting ontop a fresh packed chute, crusing at a mystical 120k when initiating your shallow-angle dive), the the first few imediate lines, closest to the fuselage, I can only imagine them as being useful if you were comming in a steep-banked dive and had a wing high against the horizon or are more likely purely asthestic.

Also, don't forget we have the fortune in AH of always having clear skies and unlimited visibility.  Finding the horizon, clearly, is easy and can be seen out to a far distance.  Add some cloud/weather though in AH, and you fly/maneuver more off instruments than visual references/ques.


Your explanation is unlikely.

Offline Chalenge

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Re: 506FG/457 FS P51D angled wing lines.
« Reply #22 on: May 29, 2012, 10:44:44 PM »
Every one of you guys should have enough experience to figure out how to use these stripes without reference to the horizon. Then again none of you should need them in AH.
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Offline drgondog

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Re: 506FG/457 FS P51D angled wing lines.
« Reply #23 on: May 30, 2012, 11:03:25 AM »
Must have been bombs too as McKennons bird and this one don't have rocket rails.

I knew I'd seen a 364th bird with the stripes too.  Must be right after the war ended as it has the call letters under the left wing.
(Image removed from quote.)

Good catch but interesting that neither the 355th nor the 357th, when re-assigned to TAC after VE Day, received the 'stripes'.  Wonder if 364th deployed to States and possibly stage for PTO?
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Offline FLS

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Re: 506FG/457 FS P51D angled wing lines.
« Reply #24 on: May 30, 2012, 04:30:34 PM »
The only use I can imagine for those lines is formation flying. You can see the alignment in the flight pictures.

Offline Babalonian

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Re: 506FG/457 FS P51D angled wing lines.
« Reply #25 on: May 30, 2012, 05:09:01 PM »
Your explanation is unlikely.


In regards to my assumption in reference to the lines imediatley closest to the fuesalage and their use in a banked dive (I can see no practical use for), or in regards to the fact of the outer-most lines being angle of dive indicators?  :D


I know the navy use to have them on the vetical stab of some aircraft, somewhere the pilot really couldn't see or make any use of them, but they were purely for the LSO to decipher with better accuracy the planes angle of attack when landing.


Da!@ this info took forever to find.

Yes, confirmed, the term we're looking for here ladies is "Angle of Attack" indicators. 

Robert Grant's book on the 506th, which served in the PTO with mustangs, supposedly has a very good written desciption on them within it somewhere.  I'd nail it more closely for you, but I'm a little busy atm (and having a looooong day).
« Last Edit: May 30, 2012, 05:15:32 PM by Babalonian »
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Offline smoe

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Re: 506FG/457 FS P51D angled wing lines.
« Reply #26 on: June 01, 2012, 09:43:10 AM »
Although it is remotely possible that some P-47s and Mustangs in 8th or 9th AF may have had the dive bomb reference lines applied I have never seen one in any photo, nor post war for such 9th AF assigned P-51 Groups (354, 355, 357), nor even 354FG when they switched briefly to P-47s late Nov -Feb 45.

FYI - A 51 skin with these lines currently exists in AH.

Offline FLS

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Re: 506FG/457 FS P51D angled wing lines.
« Reply #27 on: June 01, 2012, 11:55:31 AM »
FYI - A 51 skin with these lines currently exists in AH.

Babbleon's going to use that one to make a dive bombing film showing us how to use the 10 and 20 degree lines for dive bombing.  :D

Offline earl1937

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Re: 506FG/457 FS P51D angled wing lines.
« Reply #28 on: June 01, 2012, 12:40:49 PM »
The 506FG/457 FS P51D by cactus with the green tail has 5 rayed out angled lines on the top of each wing. What were those lines used for?
OK, guys, here is the "skinny" on the angled lines on the 51's. #1- all 51's in 506Th fighter group had the stripes, and their purpose was to aid in dive bombing. #2- they were useless. #3- The lines were never mentioned in any pilot briefs. The 506Th was based on Iwo Jima in 1945 and was primarily a B-29 escort group, but did fly some ground attack missions. The pilot who actually flew these 51's in the 506Th is Ed Linfante. For further info, link is provided below.

http://www.506thfightergroup.org

You will find serveral links on home page of different pilots who flew for the 506th, just click on ones name and review what was said about the lines.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2012, 12:49:29 PM by earl1937 »
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Offline Babalonian

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Re: 506FG/457 FS P51D angled wing lines.
« Reply #29 on: June 01, 2012, 06:26:02 PM »
Babbleon's going to use that one to make a dive bombing film showing us how to use the 10 and 20 degree lines for dive bombing.  :D

I can try, but it's still going be mostly textbook/lecture and less visual demonstration (see Earl's responce imediatley above, they sucked). 

If you think they're instruments or guages, and thus an acurate means of measuring, please (re)read my first post in this thread.

Or, do you just have a problem with being wrong?
« Last Edit: June 01, 2012, 06:36:55 PM by Babalonian »
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Wow, you guys need help.