Author Topic: More Japanese planes  (Read 4205 times)

Offline Ruah

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Re: More Japanese planes
« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2012, 10:54:12 AM »
the ki84 otsu would have to be perked. . . and honestly i would rather not see more perked stuff

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Offline Mitsu

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Re: More Japanese planes
« Reply #16 on: May 29, 2012, 08:14:04 PM »
the ki84 otsu would have to be perked. . . and honestly i would rather not see more perked stuff

I don't think it will be perked....but ENY should be 5 or 10.

Offline Butcher

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Re: More Japanese planes
« Reply #17 on: May 29, 2012, 10:47:14 PM »
Why do people keep insisting the Ki-84-I-Otsu was prototype only?  It is clear the Ki-84-I-Tei was prototype only, but everything I've seen supports the Ki-84-I-Otsu being in series production and in service.

This has been pointed out repeatedly, yet the same people keep posting that it was a prototype.  It is like they just spam out that claim and never look to see if there has been a reply and so never change their position.

Where's the proof then? I Haven't seen any credible sources have you? I would like to see production numbers - so far all my manuals come up with TOTAL Ki-84s produced. Did it see combat? How many Sentais were assigned? Combat?
« Last Edit: May 29, 2012, 10:57:32 PM by Butcher »
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Offline Mitsu

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Re: More Japanese planes
« Reply #18 on: May 30, 2012, 12:26:55 AM »
Where's the proof then? I Haven't seen any credible sources have you? I would like to see production numbers - so far all my manuals come up with TOTAL Ki-84s produced. Did it see combat? How many Sentais were assigned? Combat?

After production number 3001 is Ki-84-I-Otsu model.
Also 104th Sentai was equipped Ki-84-I-Otsu.

Offline Butcher

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Re: More Japanese planes
« Reply #19 on: May 30, 2012, 09:53:32 AM »
After production number 3001 is Ki-84-I-Otsu model.
Also 104th Sentai was equipped Ki-84-I-Otsu.

Can't find any combat record of what the 104th did, but it appears it served in mancheria waiting the russian invasion, couple of photos show it as well, this is the markings i could find.
I was hoping it was home defense, thus way I could check american AAR's to see if any americans flew against it, but it remained in mancheria starting in november 1944.



Only one issue I see is the 104th did not field an entire squadron of Otsu's, rather they had a mixed batch of combat aircraft including Ki-43s, Ki-44s and a handful of Otsu's.
Basically it looks like the 104th intercepted a few B-29s over mancheria, then ground strafed a few columns of Russian tanks just days before the war ended.

« Last Edit: May 30, 2012, 09:57:02 AM by Butcher »
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Offline gyrene81

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Re: More Japanese planes
« Reply #20 on: May 30, 2012, 12:26:02 PM »
dunno, there may have been more than a lone sentai equipped with the bird...but then, a lot of misidentification occurred during and after ww2 so sources could be sketchy.

http://www.wwiivehicles.com/japan/aircraft/fighter/nakajima-ki-84-hayate-frank.asp

http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/weapons_nakajima_ki-84.html

oops, forgot the book...  :uhoh
http://www.amazon.com//gp/offer-listing/1902304896/sr=/qid=/?condition=used&tag=bf-ns-author-lp-20
« Last Edit: May 30, 2012, 12:38:32 PM by gyrene81 »
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Offline Butcher

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Re: More Japanese planes
« Reply #21 on: May 30, 2012, 12:59:27 PM »
dunno, there may have been more than a lone sentai equipped with the bird...but then, a lot of misidentification occurred during and after ww2 so sources could be sketchy.

http://www.wwiivehicles.com/japan/aircraft/fighter/nakajima-ki-84-hayate-frank.asp

http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/weapons_nakajima_ki-84.html

oops, forgot the book...  :uhoh
http://www.amazon.com//gp/offer-listing/1902304896/sr=/qid=/?condition=used&tag=bf-ns-author-lp-20


Yeah such a late war bird, plus the lack of any Japanese information really doesn't help, If 300 were built, why did 104th Sentai only have 12 Ki-84-otsu? maybe more were equip later on? so little information.
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: More Japanese planes
« Reply #22 on: May 30, 2012, 04:47:30 PM »
Yeah such a late war bird, plus the lack of any Japanese information really doesn't help, If 300 were built, why did 104th Sentai only have 12 Ki-84-otsu? maybe more were equip later on? so little information.

Constant bombing of the Musashi engine factory severly limited the numbers of engines that could be produced and a lot of manufactured airframes sat idle outside the factories without engines.

ack-ack
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Offline Butcher

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Re: More Japanese planes
« Reply #23 on: May 30, 2012, 05:13:58 PM »
Constant bombing of the Musashi engine factory severly limited the numbers of engines that could be produced and a lot of manufactured airframes sat idle outside the factories without engines.

ack-ack

Total production numbers are far different for Japan and every other country, 300 frames might of been produced, but I doubt that many engines were available, could explain the numbers.
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: More Japanese planes
« Reply #24 on: May 30, 2012, 07:13:23 PM »
300 frames might of been produced, but I doubt that many engines were available, could explain the numbers.


The same thing happened with the Ki-61.  A B-29 raid destroyed the plant that was making the engines for the Ki-61 and that left 275 Ki-61 airframes without an engine and it was out of this group of engineless Ki-61s that the modified into Ki-100s.

ack-ack
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Offline Butcher

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Re: More Japanese planes
« Reply #25 on: May 30, 2012, 07:58:12 PM »
The same thing happened with the Ki-61.  A B-29 raid destroyed the plant that was making the engines for the Ki-61 and that left 275 Ki-61 airframes without an engine and it was out of this group of engineless Ki-61s that the modified into Ki-100s.

ack-ack

Here's a question I have, the numbers for the Ki-84 Otsu show around 300 produced by the plant - this can be established as airframes ONLY, however I believe less then 2 dozen made it into combat based on numbers from the 104th Sentai.

Would it be right to assume the majority of these 300 were simply air frames without engines; waiting for engines to be produced? It was quite common for the Japanese to produce air frames even if engines were not available, one reason being engines were tougher to build vs air frames, so they could pump out twice the frames as engines, especially late in the war.
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: More Japanese planes
« Reply #26 on: May 30, 2012, 08:29:41 PM »
Here's a question I have, the numbers for the Ki-84 Otsu show around 300 produced by the plant - this can be established as airframes ONLY, however I believe less then 2 dozen made it into combat based on numbers from the 104th Sentai.

Would it be right to assume the majority of these 300 were simply air frames without engines; waiting for engines to be produced? It was quite common for the Japanese to produce air frames even if engines were not available, one reason being engines were tougher to build vs air frames, so they could pump out twice the frames as engines, especially late in the war.


In a thread on the Ki-43 I posted a link that listed all the planes each Sentai was equipped with but it doesn't seem to be valid anymore

Japanese Army Air Force Fighter Units
1931 - 1945


But you can find the info in this book (the same info from the website was taken from this book).
Japanese Naval Air Force Fighter Units and Their Aces, 1932-1945

You would probably be right to assume that the majority were simply airframes waiting until for engines that were never built either because of damage to the production facilities or lack of resources.  

ack-ack
« Last Edit: May 30, 2012, 08:32:55 PM by Ack-Ack »
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Offline gyrene81

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Re: More Japanese planes
« Reply #27 on: May 30, 2012, 08:36:45 PM »
Butcher, there was a second production plant for the ki-84 and you're not looking at all the ki-84 equipped sentai sent to the phillipines.
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Offline Butcher

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Re: More Japanese planes
« Reply #28 on: May 30, 2012, 10:13:32 PM »
Butcher, there was a second production plant for the ki-84 and you're not looking at all the ki-84 equipped sentai sent to the phillipines.

Production of air frames is one thing, Japan had no shortage of ways to produce air frames, the problem was producing engines which the Ki-84 otsu's engine was no way an easy build, it was far complex and took quite a few man hours vs a regular Ki-84 engine. Put into perspective the Japanese could build
3 Ki-84 engines vs one Ki-61 engine.

Engine manufacturing was no easy task for the Japanese, the industry was not setup when the war began for massive manufacturing of aircraft frames or parts, it simply had to "figure it out as it went". If you look at the American side of it, we simply converted automobile factories to produce airframes at an amazing rate.

I looked at quite a few Ki-84 squadrons in philippines, none reportedly had Otsu's, best thing I can suggest to debunk this is look at After action reports for american units around philippines.

American AAR's would be the best source for information at this point, I cannot claim or declaim Otsu's were in philippines, because frankly there is a lack of information needed.

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Offline nrshida

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Re: More Japanese planes
« Reply #29 on: May 31, 2012, 03:02:31 AM »
With respect to those posting, there is an awful lot of unfettered and unsubstantiated speculation going on in this thread.

The most recent research (not that that is particularly recent) suggests as little as 100 Otsu were produced and there is no suggestion of incomplete airframes. In fact Nakajima incremented their manufacture / serial numbers (which was a unique identifier of an aeroplane) with a gap to allow for the contiguous production of the Late Production Ko (and this does not mean late in the war!). The Otsu's observable differences being the revised instrument panel, the cowl mounted Ho-5 and the differing gun ports on the top cowl, everything else was essentially identical, including the Ha-45-21 Homare engine, UNTIL you start hitting the emergency materials versions (which have different Kitai designations by the way). We know the manufacture number of the last Ko and this also was also a complete aircraft.

Good luck trying to quantify the numbers produced and furthermore identifying which Sentai had what. The manufacture numbers were sometimes encrypted as a deployment measure, the external differences are barely distinguishable and I often have difficulty even when the Ko and Otsu are parked next to each other in parallel. I have even seen pictures of mixed Sentai so this really isn't a productive line of enquiry, in my opinion.


Please do not speculate in the absence of data as it only serves to confuse the issue further. If you don't want the aircraft introduced to Aces High then please state that instead of further muddying the waters of an already difficult to navigate subject.

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