It Got Bigggg Guns. Me410 on Front Page.

[Butcher]

Krusty,

  It was an inside joke between Bustr and myself,he only offered to burn it because he knows I cant read it.

 It's a shame though,I'd like to see 1 LW plane with the MG151/15mm guns from what I've read it was a flat shooting gun but it's explosive charge left some to be desired.


   

109F-2 had it

[Krusty]

Ah, thanks. I didn't know/get that. Never mind 

P.S. The 15mm was found to be too weak to really be effective, not being much more powerful than the 13mm MG131, and the even with the better trajectory, it wasn't lethal enough.

[Vinkman]

Krusty I've already looked at the Rechlin testing results.

It duplicats the dispersion of the MK108 500m\sec round from 200m on starting at 500m. The longer barrel and higher IntV only delays the time the round stays above 700m\sec with a smaller random dispersion cone and right hand spin drift factor. Auto Cannon rounds 20mm and up below 700m\sec begin dropping like rocks and loose the ability to stay stable in the face of air friction.

The dispersion cone though becomes the same as the MK108's of 200m at 500m. 7feet diameter.

If HTC instead models the Type N round which has a superior tapered ballistic ogive and slightly less explosive content due to the more tapered shape. Then the round fired from the MK103 should shoot flatter with much less dispersion to 700m. But, if he is modeling the most used and common Type I which was simpler to produce with the conical ogive and poor ballistic coeificent. When the vLoss passes out of 700m\s the dispersion will make it about as crappy as the MK108 for shooting at anything but bombers past 400m.

The only ballistic information I've ever found on the Type N round is it may have increased the IntV in the MK108 to 510m\sec. Additionaly there was discussion that this caused timing issues and jams so the MK108 was kept to the Type I ammo 500m\sec. Wonder if that was some of the teething issues with the Bf109-G6\U4 Mk108 gun jams and battery misfire issues?

Anyway at MA furballing distances twin MK103 will possibly be destabalising in their destructive capabilities.

Bustr. THat's huge difference. Flat trajectory out to 500M? I never shoot out side of 500M. Am I missing something? Why are you making the case that it's not much of a difference. 

[Shuffler]

The 410 was a new class of a/c known as the interceptor...purely built to shoot down buffs...worthless in a dogfight. They'd avoid dogfights altogether in "real life"...anyone who was in the Navy when the F-14 was a front line unit (like me) can relate...F-14 was huge...designed to carry the Phoenix missile...a lot of the "Top Gun" movie was "Hollywood". Now...all that being typed...I would fully expect to see it vulching and dogfighting in MA...

Also once 51s, 47s, and 38s showed up with buffs the 410s were pulled.

[icepac]

Believe me, the extra distance you get out of the mk103 makes a difference in the arena.

You can lob them out a bit further.

These guns might be new here but some other sims have been modeling and adjusting the modeling since 2001.

I predict that fun will be had with the 410 but that the huge weight of fire you get from the 110g with gondolas will still see plenty of usage.

It's a good addition and will spell doom for many a milkrunner who's b17 still climbs at 400fpm while doing 316mph at 32,800 feet.

[PR3D4TOR]

I wonder if we'll get the gondola for the 410?

[Krusty]

I think we might. Question is, what weapons options will they allow? Will it be a separate thing you can mix and match, or will it be "tied" to a single gun option like the 110G's?

[Devil 505]

Looking at pictures of the gondola, it seems that the gun barrels would interfere with any ord dropped from the bomb bay. If that's indeed true, then the gondola should be tied to a particular gun package.

[PR3D4TOR]

The bomb bay is open on this one. You see the doors partially retract into the fuselage.

[PR3D4TOR]

Tying the pod to gun packs would be ok too though.

Clean
Clean+pod
20mm
20mm+pod
30mm
30mm+pod
50mm
50mm+pod
bombs
bombs+pod
etc.

[bustr]

Bustr. THat's huge difference. Flat trajectory out to 500M? I never shoot out side of 500M. Am I missing something? Why are you making the case that it's not much of a difference. 

Not the trajectory. The random dispersion cone. With the Mk108 most players have problems 200 - 300 yards becasue of the random dispersion. Not the ballistic drop. If all of your MK108 rounds shot the exact same trjectory with the same ballistic drop you would simply put a mark on your gunsight and learn the lead timing for 200 - 300 yards. At 200 yards your drop is about 3 feet and dispersion cone 14 feet. We get to finess that by tilting the barrel up through the engine block in the K4 to flatten out the dispersion and drop cone to about 400 yards. Point and click Gamey as heck. Set your K4 MK108 to 350. See how flat it shoots offline to 400 yards. Remember inside of 200 yards to begine thinking about aiming low. In real life it droped out the tip of the spinner like a lead balloon.

Check this thread for what I'm talking about with the 350yd convergance in the K4:
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,332659.90.html

At 500m or close to 600 yards the MK103 dispersion begins to open up because the velocity has dropped well below 700m\sec . Granted, a pair of MK103 will place some number of random rounds  all over the place in 2x14 ft at 380 rounds per minute. The MK108 fires at about 2x that at 600-650 rpm. With runners you begin to have accuracy problems around 600 yards. Unless you are standing off and shooting at a bomber. Then your dispersion is an advantage in getting rounds around the airframe to damage many things.

Don't worry Hitech will probably apply our cartoon world convergence application to the 410 allowing you to dial the MK103 down to lazers at 400 yards using Horizontal and vertical convergence sweet spots. In the real 410, all ganged or paired forward guns were locked parallel and the horizontal convergence was locked for set points at 500, 700, 800 and 900 meters depending on the caliber of the MG or cannon. Just like all HUB mounted cannon were locked into the level line of the engine and it's airscrew shaft.

MK103 at 500m dispersion 14ft - drop 6.6ft.
MK103 at 900m dispersion 29ft - drop 25ft <----kind of the problem you have hitting anything past 1000yds with a 37mm gun.
MK108 at 400m dispersion 30ft - drop 12ft

MA furball distances.

MK103 at 200m dispersion 4ft - drop 1ft.
MK103 at 300m dispersion 7.5ft - drop 2ft
MK108 at 200m dispersion 14ft - drop 2.7ft

Too bad many players in this game ignor the math and science Hitech and Pyro have to learn to create this matrix. It's all kentuky windage and piu, piu, piu to most.

[Getback]

Do not HO!

[bustr]

This is a Samual Colt manuverer's Holy Grail. Escpecialy that version with the 20mm in the nose.

[Krusty]

Tying the pod to gun packs would be ok too though.

Clean
Clean+pod
20mm
20mm+pod
30mm
30mm+pod
50mm
50mm+pod
bombs
bombs+pod
etc.

It won't be like that... There are only so many slots in the hangar. If they tie it to specific loads, I feel it would only be one or two loadouts that have it. If they allow mix and match I don't really know how they'd situate the hangar. A long time back I tried to plot out how best to load the hangar with as many options as possible. I came up with a mix and match system that allowed the gunpod as optional, but if HTC does the same? Nobody but HTC knows for sure.

[morfiend]

 I dont think it should have the option for 8x20mm guns! There should be 2 options for 6x20 one of those being the gondola but there was a 1 of special permission required 8 gun version and only Rudi Dassow flew this plane. He disliked the BK5 so much that he requested permission to outfit his plane.