BF-109 13mm Variants

[Slade]

Hello,

Were there any BF-109 lines (f or later) that sported multiple 13mm mg (as opposed to nose 20 mm cannon or gondies)?  Not limiting this to just a nose mounted 13mm.  Wing mounted would be cool.  4 x 13mm that is.

Just curious.  I think tactically these variants could be fun and effective if they existed.


Thanks,

Slade 

[titanic3]

I remember reading somewhere that the 109K-6 (or something or other) had 2x 15mm under the wings in addition to the 30mm in the nose and cowl guns. Could be wrong though.

[RedBull1]

Although the 109 was a fighter, you have to remember its other main roll was as a bomber killer, so 4x 13mm's weren't the best setup they wanted more cannon, for example G2/6/14 with gondis.. Or the K4 with its tater etc.

[Debrody]

The closest to what you said, might been the Galland F-4 with 3 151/15s. Also early Emils had 4*7.92 setups.

[Slade]

I'll add this.  Recently I have had great success in the F6.  Mainly because of increased skill at using the 50 cals.  It was this that got me thinking of the tactics and possibilities in a 109.  

I think in a 109 you gotta be 300 out or less to consistently be effective with that gun arrangement (flying no gondies that is).  Also, I am not so good in a 109 that I can consistently get 300 out from a target.  I can get 400-600.  THAT is a range that 50 cals can still punch hard.

Just some thoughts to let you know where I am coming from.

[Butcher]

Me-109f2 had a 15mm MG 151/15 in the nose, here's some info:

Despite the good characteristics in the 15 mm MG the german Air Force promptly favored the 20 mm gun. The air-to-air doctrine was turn to believe that is more likely to destroy an aircraft with high explosive shells and not just putting holes on it with AP ammunition.

The 20 mm diameter was always considerer as the minimum practical explosive shell. The MG-151 was designed to accept all the family of the FF, including the high capacity Minen bullet.

There was some limitations to employ the same receiver and bolt of the 15 mm variant , the cartridge case had to be reduced in length, that and the heavier projectile gave as result a 100 m/s reduction in muzzle velocity compared with the 151/15. A shorter stroke in the bolts travel was however good for the rate of fire , about 780-800 rpm. It can handle bullets between 92 and 120 grams.

Mauser began the high scale production in 1941 and it was adopted first by the Bf-109F-4 in mid-1941. The MG-151 quickly replaced (or at list it was intended so) the older MG-FF in several types of aircraft. There was a pneumatically triggered variant for fixed mounting and other manually charged for flexible defensive laffettes. As usual the cannon was feed by a disintegrable metallic belt and air cooled. The cannon weights 42 kg, and it had a overall length of 1620 mm.

[Krusty]

Slade, being good with 50cals doesn't translate to being good with 13mms. They're not the same gun at all. They have far worse trajectories, round drop, and velocity. The punch is less, as well.

The short answer is: No. The 13mm wasn't the primary armament for Bf109s. The cannon was the primary. Learn to shoot the cannon and even up to 300/400 yards you can still land very good shots. I've counted the rounds between kills many times and with the single 20mm nose gun I can fire 10 rounds for a kill on a mustang. Often it's in the 20 rds range.

Just learn to spray less and aim more. They're perfectly fine guns.

[Butcher]

Funny how it only takes 50 rounds of 50 cal to shoot down a P-47

[Karnak]

Funny how it only takes 50 rounds of 50 cal to shoot down a P-47

Why shouldn't it?  That is quite a bit of pounding.

The P-47 was tougher, but it wasn't made of armor.

[Charge]

Galland also had two custom F2s. The other had 13mm cowling guns instead of 7.9mms (with more streamlined bulges than the G6) and the other had MG-FFs in wings in addition to normal F armament, this plane also required 100 octane fuel.

-C+

[Butcher]

Why shouldn't it?  That is quite a bit of pounding.

The P-47 was tougher, but it wasn't made of armor.

You should think it was a little bit tougher then a handful of 50 cal rounds to bring it down.

[Karnak]

You should think it was a little bit tougher then a handful of 50 cal rounds to bring it down.

50 cals are hard hitting rounds and 50 of them is quite a lot.  I can't think of any aircraft in WWII that wouldn't be at serious risk of loss after being hit by 50 of them.  Certainly no single engined fighter.

Don't be mislead by that one P-47 that made it back with a dozen 20mm hits and hundreds of 7.92mm hits.   That was an anomaly.  We don't get to see the P-47's that didn't make it back after getting hit by a single 20mm round.

I have seen a photo of a Ju88 that was brought down by a single 20mm hit from a Spitfire, despite being a tough medium bomber.  The hit just happened in the right place and jammed the elevators.

[Butcher]

50 cals are hard hitting rounds and 50 of them is quite a lot.  I can't think of any aircraft in WWII that wouldn't be at serious risk of loss after being hit by 50 of them.  Certainly no single engined fighter.

Don't be mislead by that one P-47 that made it back with a dozen 20mm hits and hundreds of 7.92mm hits.   That was an anomaly.  We don't get to see the P-47's that didn't make it back after getting hit by a single 20mm round.

I have seen a photo of a Ju88 that was brought down by a single 20mm hit from a Spitfire, despite being a tough medium bomber.  The hit just happened in the right place and jammed the elevators.

Well yeah nothings perfect, There are other examples like a P-47 who had 4 cylinders shot out and made it home, one clipped a tree and made it home, would like to find the image of a 47 thats wing slashed the tail off a 109 and survived.
Then again like the P51D, one single bullet to the coolant and its engine frozen, even golith can be tamed.

Worse photo I ever seen was the B-17 that accidently dropped a 500lb bomb on another B-17s tail - http://www.daveswarbirds.com/b-17/tail3.htm

Can't think of how the ball gunner managed to deal with that (watching it unfold), you get a small glimpse of it in Memphis Bell the movie (yeah yeah hollywood I know, but it does capture the horror).

[Lusche]

50 bullets all over the plane = Pictures in Stars & Stripes "Mighty Jug shrugs it off!"
50 bullets in wingroot, cockpit or some other critical spot = M.I.A.

[Slade]

Galland also had two custom F2s. The other had 13mm cowling guns instead of 7.9mms (with more streamlined bulges than the G6) and the other had MG-FFs in wings in addition to normal F armament, this plane also required 100 octane fuel.

I'd love to have these gun options.