109 vs. Dive Speed

[Slade]

To you 109 experts,

I am aware of the 109 compression (or whatever the proper term is) in a dive but was wondering which 109 variant in AH dives the fastest?

Maybe gets to its terminally velocity the fastest in a dive is another way to word it.


Thanks,

Slade 

[Noir]

K4 would be the obvious answer, more HP, better streamlining.

[LCADolby]

109E gets surface movement issues sooner than the K4.

[Krusty]

Generally speaking they're all about the same starting with the G2 on up. Sure, the horsepower of the K4 might make it dive a little faster -- but I kind of doubt it since the drag and terminal velocity are probably going to be the same regardless of horsepower.

For AH purposes they'll all "lock up" before you reach that anyway, so that's why I say they're all about the same.

[Babalonian]

Really are two different answers to your questions Slate.  The K-4 undoubtedly dives the fastest at full throttle, and locks up very quickly.  Your question can also be interpreted, as which maintains the most control at the highest possible dive speed (and this again can be broken into two parts - pre-control lockup and post-control lockup (aka: pure trim)).  I don't know 109s that well or in that much detail to give a good opinion twords that, but about all the Gs and the K are the same in that area imho in terms of control authority and I guess "trim authority".

[MiloMorai]

The maximum permissible indicated airspeeds in the different heights are not being observed and are widely exceeded. On the basis of evidence which is now available the speed limitations ordered by teleprint message GL/6 No. 2428/41 of 10.6.41 are cancelled and replaced by the following data:

Up to 3 km   (9,842 ft.)   750 km/h.   (466 m.p.h.)
At 5 km   (16,404 ft)   700 km/h.   (435 m.p.h.)
At 7 km   (22,965 ft)   575 km/h.   (357 m.p.h.)
At 9 km   (29,527 ft)   450 km/h.   (280 m.p.h.)
At 11 km   (36,089 ft)   400 km/h.   (248 m.p.h.)

source: Spitfire Performance

[Ruah]

seems like a trick question really.  Sure the K4 will go the fastest, but that also means it reaches the compression speed faster - and will either have to bleed speed (rudder, throttle, trim, roll) faster o will just lawn dart faster. 

[Slade]

seems like a trick question really.

Not my intent but you are correct in a sense.  Sometimes one needs to dive to setup a firing solution.  Especially true on initial contact when you may be 5K+ above your target.

For a 190, P-51, P-47, F-4u (planes that are good at diving etc.), I find myself in these situations using all the "air braking" techniques until about 2.5 away.  Then I back off the breaking and focus on angle of attack and closing range.  Even in the air braking phase I still try to setup the best angle of attack too of course.

For BF-109s I find that dive angle cannot be as steep and cannot back off "air braking" until I am closer to the target (or I become a lawn dart).

Do you guys deal with high approaches the same way?

Please share your findings and techniques.

[save]

From what i've read, 109 pilots used both hands ,and feet on rudders to pull up at high speed, what max force are calculated for pulling up at compression in AH ?

[titanic3]

Spiral dive, keeping eyes on target at all times. Never going past 400mph.

[icepac]

How do you catch a plane going faster than 400?

[titanic3]

How do you catch a plane going faster than 400?

Ignore it? This is where SA comes in, Choose targets you can easily kill first, but still keep watch of the other cons. If it's the only con, then sure, dive past 400 to catch them. When you get on his 6 and he breaks, zoom straight up and spiral dive on him. He is now under 400mph and you still have your energy stored as altitude.

EDIT: I should be more specific, unless the 400mph+ con is heading right for you, then you can ignore it, if it is, then that's a discussion for another topic.

[Debrody]

Icepac,
Titan said something useful. Still, there can be more effective ways than the zooming straight up.
The F/G/K series can reach the blackout at up to 435mph, using the auto combat trim and still remain controllable at 445-450mph. The key is to plan forward: if your opponent is as much under you and as fast that you have to dive faster than 440, i would suggest to add a bit of manual trim when its not too late, ergo hit the k button for 1-1.5 seconds. Then you can still fly straight and hit the blackout if you need, up to 470 mph. For me, that was enough to catch any pony, f4u, lala, 190 sometimes even tempests, even tho they usually came from way above.
If the enemy breaks, i usually started a spiral climb to slow me down (what happened very quickly with idle engine), so i ended up slow, a bit above them but not as far as with a straight zoom-up, leaving them less chance to try to excend for a bit, and could finish my opponents quickly unless whey were in something real turny (spit8/9, hurri, zeek, brewski and well-flown f4us).

[Ardy123]

From what i've read, 109 pilots used both hands ,and feet on rudders to pull up at high speed, what max force are calculated for pulling up at compression in AH ?

I believe in RL the max force a person was able to apply on the stick was about 60 lbs. This was primary due to the small cockpit preventing the pilot from gaining enough leverage. 109s you want to use trim and you want to 'time' you dives so that you are at around 440ish at the time you pull the trigger. If you are too fast before you dive, bleed e, cut throttle and don't position yourself so far above the other guy. Remember 109s can climb!

[Babalonian]

Ahh, this also depends on a given situation. 

I do things differently, usualy in a 190, as I try to get my opponent as slow as possible while retaining as much speed as possible and will BnZ to "tire" them out numerous times before getting impatient or seeing an oportunity.  But in a 109 (when I rarely fly them, or similar ac), I go fo one or two high speed passes at most before comming in slow in an attempt to sadle up my target (usualy these passes are intended to guage or further inspect the enemy before fully comiting my E/alt advantage and attention to engaging them... IE: guaging a disciplined La5 vs. a stick-stiring negative-g-pushing La7 at 12k - both I would handle differently after a initial BnZ/safety/recon pass).  Compression, as long as it's controlable with trim, is fine in this first pass... the enemy usualy doesnt know (or care), beyond that you're closign on their 6 fast, to think if your shaking too hard to make any realistic shot, so they brake to avoid best they can.