Author Topic: Colorado Gun Demand Jumps 41%  (Read 11888 times)

Offline Melvin

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Re: Colorado Gun Demand Jumps 41%
« Reply #360 on: July 31, 2012, 10:31:07 PM »
there's no difference between one and the other.  we allowed guns to be sold to people we shouldnt have. so basically pick a side and stick to it.

Some people believe that Col. North is a hero for his actions during the Iran/Contra affair.


Nobody feels the same way about the current Attorney General's handling of this latest fiasco.
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Offline guncrasher

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Re: Colorado Gun Demand Jumps 41%
« Reply #361 on: July 31, 2012, 11:05:22 PM »
Some people believe that Col. North is a hero for his actions during the Iran/Contra affair.


Nobody feels the same way about the current Attorney General's handling of this latest fiasco.

11 people were convicted for that roll.  some where vacated but most on technicalities then the president pardon the others.  and even the secretary of defense mentioned on his memoirs that the vp was present at the meetings and that it was a lie when he denied it.  actually 2 people said that in their memoirs.

I wouldnt call anybody that violates us laws a hero.  but on the bright he did make 20k per speech.  not bad for somebody with a felony conviction.

but I am more interested in your explanation of how somebody that violates us laws can be considered a hero.  you do know that there was a us embargo on selling arms to Iran.

as for the attorney general saying nobody feels the same way is pretty much a lie.

semp
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Offline Guppy35

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Re: Colorado Gun Demand Jumps 41%
« Reply #362 on: August 01, 2012, 12:12:40 AM »
This would be awful for killing food or splitting firewood.

(Image removed from quote.)

However, one of these is magnificent for putting food on the table, as well as sport and self defense.

(Image removed from quote.)


And yes, they are both good for killing. However, how they are used is up to the person in possession.

Just out of curiosity, what are you hunting for food with an AR15?  Eating a lot of varmint are ya?

I don't know about where you live, but they aren't legal for deer in Minnesota.  Too small of a round.
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Offline TonyJoey

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Re: Colorado Gun Demand Jumps 41%
« Reply #363 on: August 01, 2012, 01:22:48 AM »
 Von, your assertion that a ban of extended-magazines is an infringement of your rights as guaranteed by the 2nd Amendment does not seem to be supported by the relevant case-law.

*From US v. Miller:

In the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession or use of a "shotgun having a barrel of less than eighteen inches in length" at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument. Certainly it is not within judicial notice that this weapon is any part of the ordinary military equipment or that its use could contribute to the common defense. Aymette v. State, 2 Humphreys (Tenn.) 154, 158.

*From US v. Heller, an excerpt of what the court in Heller has to say about Miller.

We think that Miller’s “ordinary military equipment” language must be read in tandem with what comes after: “Ordinarily when called for [militia] service [able-bodied] men were expected to appear bearing arms supplied by themselves and of the kind in common use at the time.” 307 U. S., at 179. The traditional militia was formed from a pool of men bringing arms “in common use at the time” for lawful purposes like self-defense. “In the colonial and revolutionary war era, [small-arms] weapons used by militiamen and weapons used in defense of person and home were one and the same.” State v. Kessler, 289 Ore. 359, 368, 614 P. 2d 94, 98 (1980) (citing G. Neumann, Swords and Blades of the American Revolution 6–15, 252–254 (1973)). Indeed, that is precisely the way in which the Second Amendment’s operative clause furthers the purpose announced in its preface. We therefore read Miller to say only that the Second Amendment does not protect those weapons not typically possessed by law-abiding citizens for lawful purposes, such as short-barreled shotguns.


You guys have made it abundantly clear that extended-magazines are not “part of the ordinary military equipment,” and are, “typically not used for lawful purposes like self-defense.” Most, including the military, find standard-capacity magazines much more reliable and effective, and choose them over extended magazines for lawful purposes such as self-defense or sport. Just as sawed-off shotguns are not protected by the Second Amendment, neither are extended-capacity magazines.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2012, 01:25:00 AM by TonyJoey »

Offline VonMessa

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Re: Colorado Gun Demand Jumps 41%
« Reply #364 on: August 01, 2012, 07:08:29 AM »
Von, your assertion that a ban of extended-magazines is an infringement of your rights as guaranteed by the 2nd Amendment does not seem to be supported by the relevant case-law.

*From US v. Miller:

In the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession or use of a "shotgun having a barrel of less than eighteen inches in length" at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument. Certainly it is not within judicial notice that this weapon is any part of the ordinary military equipment or that its use could contribute to the common defense. Aymette v. State, 2 Humphreys (Tenn.) 154, 158.

*From US v. Heller, an excerpt of what the court in Heller has to say about Miller.

We think that Miller’s “ordinary military equipment” language must be read in tandem with what comes after: “Ordinarily when called for [militia] service [able-bodied] men were expected to appear bearing arms supplied by themselves and of the kind in common use at the time.” 307 U. S., at 179. The traditional militia was formed from a pool of men bringing arms “in common use at the time” for lawful purposes like self-defense. “In the colonial and revolutionary war era, [small-arms] weapons used by militiamen and weapons used in defense of person and home were one and the same.” State v. Kessler, 289 Ore. 359, 368, 614 P. 2d 94, 98 (1980) (citing G. Neumann, Swords and Blades of the American Revolution 6–15, 252–254 (1973)). Indeed, that is precisely the way in which the Second Amendment’s operative clause furthers the purpose announced in its preface. We therefore read Miller to say only that the Second Amendment does not protect those weapons not typically possessed by law-abiding citizens for lawful purposes, such as short-barreled shotguns.


You guys have made it abundantly clear that extended-magazines are not “part of the ordinary military equipment,” and are, “typically not used for lawful purposes like self-defense.” Most, including the military, find standard-capacity magazines much more reliable and effective, and choose them over extended magazines for lawful purposes such as self-defense or sport. Just as sawed-off shotguns are not protected by the Second Amendment, neither are extended-capacity magazines.


While you have done an excellent job at comparing apples to oranges (short barreled shotguns to extended magazines on rifles), you fail to show me the correlation.

A short-barreled shotgun is fairly useless in all but very close-quarters fighting.  Shortening the barrel effectively creates a bigger spread of the shot group of the ammo (not as concentrated) and neuters the accuracy.  In essence, unless extremely close, a short-barreled shotgun will not kill as effectively, although it may be effective in clearing a path for an escape route.  It is also useless for small game hunting and clay shooting because of the aforementioned reasons.

An extended magazine, however, is still effective for lawful purposes and great for sport (when they are functioning properly).  The weapon itself is not modified by the size of the magazine and neither are the operating parameters, just the duration of sustained fire.


 Just as sawed-off shotguns are not protected by the Second Amendment, neither are extended-capacity magazines.


You see this where?
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Offline VonMessa

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Re: Colorado Gun Demand Jumps 41%
« Reply #365 on: August 01, 2012, 07:46:24 AM »
Just out of curiosity, what are you hunting for food with an AR15?  Eating a lot of varmint are ya?

I don't know about where you live, but they aren't legal for deer in Minnesota.  Too small of a round.

I thought your minimum is a .220 or larger centerfire  :headscratch:
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Offline TonyJoey

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Re: Colorado Gun Demand Jumps 41%
« Reply #366 on: August 01, 2012, 11:47:23 AM »
While you have done an excellent job at comparing apples to oranges (short barreled shotguns to extended magazines on rifles), you fail to show me the correlation.
A short-barreled shotgun is fairly useless in all but very close-quarters fighting.  Shortening the barrel effectively creates a bigger spread of the shot group of the ammo (not as concentrated) and neuters the accuracy.  In essence, unless extremely close, a short-barreled shotgun will not kill as effectively, although it may be effective in clearing a path for an escape route.  It is also useless for small game hunting and clay shooting because of the aforementioned reasons.
An extended magazine, however, is still effective for lawful purposes and great for sport (when they are functioning properly).  The weapon itself is not modified by the size of the magazine and neither are the operating parameters, just the duration of sustained fire.
You see this where?

The correlation is that neither are "part of the ordinary military equipment." The military chooses not to use them becuase they jam, affect accuracy, are too heavy, and make it very hard to sling the weapon properly. They are also "typically not used for lawful purposes." What I mean is not that when they are used, they are typically used illegaly. Rather legal owners, for lawful purposes, do not typically choose extended magazines, just as they don't choose shortened shotguns.  

« Last Edit: August 01, 2012, 11:49:46 AM by TonyJoey »

Offline Shuffler

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Re: Colorado Gun Demand Jumps 41%
« Reply #367 on: August 01, 2012, 11:58:15 AM »
The correlation is that neither are "part of the ordinary military equipment." The military chooses not to use them becuase they jam, affect accuracy, are too heavy, and make it very hard to sling the weapon properly. They are also "typically not used for lawful purposes." What I mean is not that when they are used, they are typically used illegaly. Rather legal owners, for lawful purposes, do not typically choose extended magazines, just as they don't choose shortened shotguns.  



Way off base... just wrong.

I have a mossy shorty with pistol grip in my truck... always.  I know many more that keep shorties. None are criminals.
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Offline TonyJoey

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Re: Colorado Gun Demand Jumps 41%
« Reply #368 on: August 01, 2012, 12:25:37 PM »
Way off base... just wrong.

I have a mossy shorty with pistol grip in my truck... always.  I know many more that keep shorties. None are criminals.

I should have said this:

What I mean is not that when they are used, they are typically used illegaly. Rather legal owners, for lawful purposes, do not typically choose extended magazines, just as they didn't choose sawed-off shotguns in 1939, when the Miller case was decided. In 1939, the Court unanimously found that a shortened shotgun had no reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well-regulated militia. In 2012, an extended magazine has no such relationship either.

Offline Melvin

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Re: Colorado Gun Demand Jumps 41%
« Reply #369 on: August 01, 2012, 04:14:33 PM »
as for the attorney general saying nobody feels the same way is pretty much a lie.

Who do you know that thinks Operation Fast and Furious was a good thing and that the Attorney General is a hero for the way he and his staff are handling the situation. Certainly you don't, do you?


I don't know about where you live, but they aren't legal for deer in Minnesota.  Too small of a round.

You can check my location by looking slightly to the left. And I recommend you check your facts again as to the legality of deer hunting in Minnesota with a .223.

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Offline Rich46yo

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Re: Colorado Gun Demand Jumps 41%
« Reply #370 on: August 01, 2012, 04:29:53 PM »
this bolded part is just factually wrong :(

Very well thought out, and researched, response.  :huh

My response to your responce ? No...your wrong. :P
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Offline guncrasher

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Re: Colorado Gun Demand Jumps 41%
« Reply #371 on: August 01, 2012, 10:43:42 PM »
Who do you know that thinks Operation Fast and Furious was a good thing and that the Attorney General is a hero for the way he and his staff are handling the situation. Certainly you don't, do you?



i never said that operation fast and furious was a good thing.  but on the other hand your comment below is a lie.

Some people believe that Col. North is a hero for his actions during the Iran/Contra affair.


Nobody feels the same way about the current Attorney General's handling of this latest fiasco.

seriously nobody? based on the fact that most people dont really care and going based on the number who actually show to vote.  I would point out that most dont even know who oliver north is, and most think that fast and the furious was a move about racing cars.


semp
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Offline jimson

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Re: Colorado Gun Demand Jumps 41%
« Reply #372 on: August 01, 2012, 11:00:13 PM »
seriously nobody? based on the fact that most people dont really care and going based on the number who actually show to vote.  I would point out that most dont even know who oliver north is, and most think that fast and the furious was a move about racing cars.
semp
And this shows that there are people who think Eric Holder is a hero because he helped funnel guns to drug cartels one of which was used to kill a Border Patrol Officer how?

Offline guncrasher

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Re: Colorado Gun Demand Jumps 41%
« Reply #373 on: August 02, 2012, 01:18:40 AM »
And this shows that there are people who think Eric Holder is a hero because he helped funnel guns to drug cartels one of which was used to kill a Border Patrol Officer how?

see there it goes again.  I never said he was a hero.  all my argument was that Melvin's statement that everybody is against the fast and the furious is not a truthful statement.

most people dont care.  and to be honest with you, they cartel would have gotten those guns anyway from other sources.  unless you mean to tell me that the 2000 guns used are the only ones the cartel has obtained so far?   so it's not like if the fast and the furious wasnt done that the border patrol officer would have been alive.  it's possible that he could have gotten killed with other guns, like it has happen to other border patrol agents.





semp
you dont want me to ho, dont point your plane at me.

Offline Widewing

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Re: Colorado Gun Demand Jumps 41%
« Reply #374 on: August 02, 2012, 01:25:13 AM »
see there it goes again.  I never said he was a hero.  all my argument was that Melvin's statement that everybody is against the fast and the furious is not a truthful statement.

most people dont care.  and to be honest with you, they cartel would have gotten those guns anyway from other sources.  unless you mean to tell me that the 2000 guns used are the only ones the cartel has obtained so far?   so it's not like if the fast and the furious wasnt done that the border patrol officer would have been alive.  it's possible that he could have gotten killed with other guns, like it has happen to other border patrol agents.

semp

The fact remains that the agent WAS killed with a Fast and Furious gun, which may not have happened if the gun wasn't sold to the drug runners. Any other conclusion entails ignoring the facts....
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