87G eny?

[Ack-Ack]

Why less than 20 degrees? Wouldn't a hit at 90 degrees on the top of the tank be ideal?

From the patch notes.

This tank killing variant features 2 37mm cannons firing high velocity tungsten core ammunition.  This ammunition has tremendous penetration capability for its caliber, but that capability falls off sharply past a 20 or 30 degree impact angle.

I just think people expected more out of the gun and disappointed that it's not the one shot killer they thought it would be.

ack-ack

[Tank-Ace]

From the patch notes.
I just think people expected more out of the gun and disappointed that it's not the one shot killer they thought it would be.

ack-ack

I think you might have misinterpreted the patch notes sir. The way I took it, it means that at angles above around 20-30 degrees, the penetration drops off quickly.

[Lusche]

From the patch notes.
This ammunition has tremendous penetration capability for its caliber, but that capability falls off sharply past a 20 or 30 degree impact angle.

That doesn't mean the best penetration is between 20 and 30 degrees. Read it as  past 20 to 30 degrees.. 0 degrees (or 90, depending how you look at it), is still the optimum angle.

[SmokinLoon]

That doesn't mean the best penetration is between 20 and 30 degrees. Read it as  past 20 to 30 degrees.. 0 degrees (or 90, depending how you look at it), is still the optimum angle.

As it is with any AP round.  The closer the impact is to 90° the better the AP round performs thanks to that whole energy transfer physics thingy.  The further away the angle gets from 90° (or closer to a 179° impact) the more apt the AP round will glance off.

FWIW, keep in mind that at long ranges when the rounds are being lobbed in, the impact point is closer to 90° on sloped armor than many people thing. 

[bangsbox]

i will say that i hit a wirb at almost ) degrees wheels almost hit dirt and well under trees that i put 1 shot/2 rounds in the side (under turret above tracks, what sprits and where they were going looked liked) and it didnt die and kept shooting then i got kills after a gver shot it.... would think it would just die

[Rich46yo]

Again, here are the relitively shallow angles the 87G was actually used in http://youtu.be/ccOXrfBZoLE . Angles very easy to reproduce in the game.

Last night I did it again, repeated attacks on a sherman while watching the rounds bounce off. One volley in particular stank to high heavan but I'd forgotton to hit the record button. After a few attempts I upped an IL2 and killed it in one pass. I thought I had film of it but it was Rav3N if you want to check under Rich54 's stats.

Heres film, the first few passes against the sherman http://youtu.be/H27kRzaIfxk  Heres a perfect hit to the rear plate of the Sherman, point blank, at almost no % of angle Heres another hit, at a higher angle, you see the yellow hit spright ofrom the right gun to the low right of the tank.

Heres the 2nd part of the video against an unk tank. I think it was a P-4. Here you see two perfect hits to the side
Here you see one hit to the rear,side,bottom

I could post more if I cared to edit more but i didnt really even have time for this. Since I'll probably be leaving the game, non-87G related, theres no point to. But I'll say this, everyone Ive talked to in the game has admitted to me the airplane is a dog. Those in the forum who defend it in the forum have very little on-line experience with it, and even lesser kills. The snail himself, one of the finest players in the game, has only kill 2 sherm/75s and nothing tougher. The rest Panzers and lesser's, and only 7 GVs total.

IE: The plane is already a hangar Queen. An airplane, "chosen by the players in a vote", in its first month of play, only has 1/2 the K/Ds of the IL2.

[Lusche]

The snail himself, one of the finest players in the game, has only kill 2 sherm/75s and nothing tougher.

Because I fly tank busters strictly in airfield defensive missions, where the great majority of tanks showing up are nothing stronger than m4/75 and Panzer IVs. I can't kill what I do not encounter. My 19 kills in the Hurri D show the same killing profile That doesn't say anything about the Ju-87G's ability.

The plane is already a hangar Queen. An airplane, "chosen by the players in a vote", in its first month of play, only has 1/2 the K/Ds of the IL2.

Being a "hangar queen" is not about K/D. It's about being used or not. And since the Ju-87G was introduced, the Il-2 had 1684 kills and deaths, the Ju-87G 2598.
And by the way: The Ju-87G was not chosen by a vote.



ADDENDUM:

On the topic of K/D - global K/D includes all kills and deaths, including flak vehicles and fighter, against both of them the Ju-87 has naturally much worse cards than the Il-2

The true K/D vs tanks so far:

Il-2               1.36
Ju-87G          0.92
Hurricane IID  0.77

Suddenly the alleged "fail" doesn't look that spectacular anymore... 

[R 105]

Again, here are the relitively shallow angles the 87G was actually used in http://youtu.be/ccOXrfBZoLE . Angles very easy to reproduce in the game.

Last night I did it again, repeated attacks on a sherman while watching the rounds bounce off. One volley in particular stank to high heavan but I'd forgotton to hit the record button. After a few attempts I upped an IL2 and killed it in one pass. I thought I had film of it but it was Rav3N if you want to check under Rich54 's stats.

Heres film, the first few passes against the sherman http://youtu.be/H27kRzaIfxk  Heres a perfect hit to the rear plate of the Sherman, point blank, at almost no % of angle (Image removed from quote.) Heres another hit, at a higher angle, you see the yellow hit spright ofrom the right gun to the low right of the tank. (Image removed from quote.)

Heres the 2nd part of the video against an unk tank. I think it was a P-4. Here you see two perfect hits to the side (Image removed from quote.)
Here you see one hit to the rear,side,bottom (Image removed from quote.)

I could post more if I cared to edit more but i didnt really even have time for this. Since I'll probably be leaving the game, non-87G related, theres no point to. But I'll say this, everyone Ive talked to in the game has admitted to me the airplane is a dog. Those in the forum who defend it in the forum have very little on-line experience with it, and even lesser kills. The snail himself, one of the finest players in the game, has only kill 2 sherm/75s and nothing tougher. The rest Panzers and lesser's, and only 7 GVs total.

 As I said I flew the JU-87G off line but had about the same luck killing tanks as you did here in your film. While I can kill most tanks with one pass in the IL-2.

IE: The plane is already a hangar Queen. An airplane, "chosen by the players in a vote", in its first month of play, only has 1/2 the K/Ds of the IL2.

 Just because a plane win a vote it don't mean it was the best one. Most voters are totally uninformed when they vote both here and in real life LOL.

[Rich46yo]

Because I fly tank busters strictly in airfield defensive missions, where the great majority of tanks showing up are nothing stronger than m4/75 and Panzer IVs. I can't kill what I do not encounter. My 19 kills in the Hurri D show the same killing profile That doesn't say anything about the Ju-87G's ability.

We all fly them like that Lusche. I see a lot of T-34s. And the reason why the Hurri-D doesnt have much T34 kills is cause its not very good at killing them.

Being a "hangar queen" is not about K/D. It's about being used or not. And since the Ju-87G was introduced, the Il-2 had 1684 kills and deaths, the Ju-87G 2598.
And by the way: The Ju-87G was not chosen by a vote.

For a first tour release I'd say its usage has been low. I forget the exact day it was released, tho your right, I did forget it wasnt out all tour. But in perspective the 410 has been used for 13053 K/Ds in its limited tour compared to its contemporary 110s full tour of 8972. The G2 has an unimpressive 2602 K/Ds. It hasnt been a particularly successful release. Maybe its 0.49% K/D has something to do with it.

ADDENDUM:

On the topic of K/D - global K/D includes all kills and deaths, including flak vehicles and fighter, against both of them the Ju-87 has naturally much worse cards than the Il-2

The true K/D vs tanks so far:

Il-2               1.36
Ju-87G          0.92
Hurricane IID  0.77

About what I'd say. The Hurri-D and 87G are about on equal footing, "the disparity can be explained by more usage of the 87G". We wont know the true facts until a few months go by, or, at least until we get a full tour of 87G stats.

Suddenly the allege d "fail" doesn't look that spectacular anymore... 

It looks like the IL2 is the premier tank killer. We already know the Hurri-D is a hangar Queen, sorry I know your fond of it. And the 87G is, or will shortly be, another hangar queen.

[Lusche]

It looks like the IL2 is the premier tank killer.

Which is exactly what I expected. I did not believe for a moment the Ju-87G would surpass it, unless they would had seriously overmodeled the gun. All key specs did speak for the Il-2.

We already know the Hurri-D is a hangar Queen, sorry I know your fond of it. And the 87G is, or will shortly be, another hangar queen.

By that definition, a whole lot of our planes are "hangar queens" (the Hurri D had >18,000 kills and deaths last year, #62 out of 87 planes). In fact, as it stands there are only very few planes left out of AH that would have a chance to get into the "top used" list.

As said above I was not expecting the 87G to be more than a niche plane. I'm still wondering what wonders players did expect from it, considering the slow, heavy and vulnerable plane it was based upon 

[bangsbox]

i will say that i hit a wirb at almost 0 degrees wheels almost hit dirt and well under trees that i put 1 shot/2 rounds in the side (under turret above tracks, what sprits and where they were going looked liked) and it didnt die and it kept shooting then i got the kill after a gver shot it.... would think it would just die

I meant at almost 0 degrees** at 400 with my convergence at 400

[RedBull1]

Well rich you are missing a lot of shots completely as well, even in your screen shots you cannot see anything as the dirt is kicking up from where you hit the ground

[Rich46yo]

Well rich you are missing a lot of shots completely as well, even in your screen shots you cannot see anything as the dirt is kicking up from where you hit the ground

Nope, each volley has at least one hit sprite. Heres another video of me and an IL2 working a T34 tonight. He actually got it smoking, tho I ended up with the kill. Included were perfect hits to the rear. http://youtu.be/7LiCL6a0_BM Thats 25mm plate I was shooting at 200 to 250 meters. The video degrades in the diting/streaming process. If i dont see a yellow hit spite in Vegas 10 then i dont use the video. And IL2, with the same amount of hits, in the same exact spots, would have killed it.

It was an IL2 that got it smoking. Unfortunatly i couldnt film that but you do see other heavy cannon rounds in the video.

[Tank-Ace]

So question:


If the guns are modled correctly, why are they not as effective as they seem to have been in real life? I mean if the Ju-87G's really did use relatively shallow angles, the problem shouldn't be one of angles (as most people come in shallow).


If I had to guess, the problem lays in the damage model of vehicles, which require a certian ammount of damage to be destroyed.

Based on observation, it seems that there are two parts to the damage model, those being overall HP and components. In components, there are two separate sub-groups, those being critical and non-critical. Critical components would be engine, driver, and potentially ammunition racks, non-critical components are tracks, and turret. Each of these have a damage threshold that must be reached or exceeded for the component to be damaged. Engine seems to have a second damage threshold which results in destruction of the tank (perhaps through engine fire, or whatever other plausible cause).

It seems (again, based on obesrvation) that to destroy a tank, you must either destroy a critical component (wound the driver, or set the engine on fire), or exceed the overall damage threshold for the tank.

Each shell is also confirmed to have a set starting-damage-value, which appears to decrease with both range (decreased velocity) and armor penetrated (again, decreased velocity). The ability of the round to penetrate armor decreases with range (also due to decreased velocity).

However, the thing that doesn't make sense with this (at least to me) is that several weapons are known to fire APCBC-HE rounds, which have an HE component that explodes after penetration of the armor. IIRC, those are both Panzer IV's (with long 75mm's, I think), Panther, Tiger I and II, and the US M4's. One would think that the explosion in a confined space would do more damage than a shell or fragments of a shell ricocheting around inside the fighting compartment. This would also mean that the rounds from these tanks should do virtually the same ammount of damage regardless of the thickness of armor penetrated (because they blow up after penetration).

[Karnak]

In what way do they seem less effective than they should?  How many hits per kill did they have in reality?

I have a feeling that the biggest problem is that people had overly optimistic expectations of them.  I used to think so as well, you can see it in my old posts against the Ju87G-2, but in the last year or so I backed off on that substantially.

As it stands, the Il-2 is clearly a superior platform.  The Ju87G-2's advantages are view out of the cockpit, synchronized guns and slightly higher penetration on the guns.  The Il-2 is in all other ways superior.

The main use for the Ju87G-2, in my opinion, is that German aircraft fans now have a German plane to shoot tanks with and will no longer be pushed into using the Il-2, Hurricane Mk IId or B-25H.