Author Topic: Some words from 9./JG 54 Staffelkapitän  (Read 1273 times)

Offline StSanta

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Some words from 9./JG 54 Staffelkapitän
« on: April 06, 2001, 05:40:00 PM »
Nath was, during some time, quite abrasive and his aggressive style and blunt way of critizising things he felt was wrong made him more than a few enemies.

I've decided not to discuss or debate HTC's decision of banning Nath for now, and can see both sides points of view. To a large extent it's between HTC and Nath, but in 9./JG 54, people are our most valued assets, and as such, I feel a loyalty towards squad mates that's very strong indeed.

When Nath joined 9./JG 54, there were some questions from members of this community about the decision from the squads side to accept him. Our view was, and is, that Nath is one hell of a stick and that under the somewhat blunt facade is a whole different side to his person. He's knowledgeable and has contributed a lot to the squad, be it in scenarios, tactics discussions or the creation or our web site.

Those who consider nath just an egomaniac with a potty mouth are, put simply, wrong. There's much more to it than that, but one has to bother to look to see it. All my life I've surrounded myself with people on the fringe of the "accepted norm" of behaviour. Some have been provocative, some have been outcasts and some have been rejects. All have been worthwhile once I've seen through the prejudices and easily formed unbased opinions. Some things there has been something to, others there hasn't.

So I was pretty sure that there was something beneath the surface, and I was right.

It's a fact that after Nath joined 9./JG 54, he has cleaned up his act a whole lot. Several people have told me so, and it's also been my and other squad mates experiences. Occasional outburst yes and when we think it gets a little out of hand, we let him know. Still, it's his prerogative to act on our advice or not, and he knows very well that if he behaves like an utter tard all the time, he won't be welcome in the squad.

But the thing is, he hasn't. And the communitys response to this ban has been, well shocking.

The schadenfreude has been unrivalled, and people have basked in his misery (cannot find another English words, sorry). Then, when it was pointed out, they sort of got straight faces and started acting all logical and civilized. However, they did show some character traits that I personally dislike.

Fortunately, there were also individuals that showed class. A big <S!> to them.

He's arrogant. That's the style of a Grünherzjäger. Another characteristic of a Grünherzjäger is to poke fun at your opponents, and rub things in. We give, and *we take*. Like everyone, we vent from time to time. Nath may not do it with the same sort of style as the rest of us, and is serious about his complaints most of the times (I tend to rant and rave when I get shot down, but usually it disappears after a minute or two).

Nath might be conceived as abrasive, but there are a lot of people out there that are equally abrasive. There are people who whine a whole lot more. There are people who game the game and are proud of it. There are kill stealers and car bombers and offmap dweebs; something I rate much worse than a "you HO dweeb, learn to fly" comment.

He ain't the worst and he's gotten a whole lot better.

Don't bring HTC's decision into this debate, please. It isn't about that. It's about a pariah or pariahs in general, and a squad mate. Some of you will think less of me because of this post, but that matters little; I remain true to my principles and that includes showing the other side of the proverbial coin.

When I know what the situation was like, I'll speak about it, and that'd include what I think about Nath's behaviour. I'm talking in general terms and about the community's reaction to him and others in the past. So HTC and the situation that caused the whole deal is not a part of the discussion, although I must say I am sorry about the damages done by nath, but also on him. For that, my apology and regrets.

<Soap box mode off>

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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
Staffelkapitän 9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"If you return from a mission with a victory, but without your Rottenflieger, you have lost your battle."
- D. Hrabak, JG 54 "Grünherz"

[This message has been edited by StSanta (edited 04-06-2001).]

Offline NUTTZ

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Some words from 9./JG 54 Staffelkapitän
« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2001, 05:52:00 PM »
I liked Nath, I think it is between HTC and Nath. I don't think bad about anyone who steps up to the plate and sticks by their squadies, hell i have to give you a big <S> to do that after what i have read also.

NUTTZ  (i fly)


Offline danish

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Some words from 9./JG 54 Staffelkapitän
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2001, 05:58:00 PM »
"Some of you will think less of me because of this post, .."

Quite the contrary.  <S>

danish

Offline Kirin

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Some words from 9./JG 54 Staffelkapitän
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2001, 06:03:00 PM »
<S>

Now I now why you our Staffelkapitaen, Santa... I agree 100%!

I had some arguing with Nath from time to time myself - but he is my squaddie and I won't let him down.

I don't know excactly what happened that night - but banning a person from AH brings a whole new side to the game - a bad taste, things are really getting a bit too serious now.
Real men fly Radial!

Offline SOB

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Some words from 9./JG 54 Staffelkapitän
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2001, 06:16:00 PM »
You're sticking up for a squaddie and a friend...how can anyone think less of you for that?  As someone who isn't disappointed at all to see him go, I respect your opinion and am sorry your squad had to lose him.

While I agree that he's come a long way, I still rarely saw anything coming out of his mouth on the open channel that wasn't crap.  HTC is trying to clean the community up and make it a nicer place to be, and as such I think losing Nath was a positive step in that direction, whether his being booted was related to that or not.

As far as him being a good guy underneath, I suppose that's possible, but not really the issue.  What modivation would I have to try and dig through the crap to *possibly* find a good guy underneath when there are plenty of good guys around that don't need my special attention to act like decent human beings?

Of course, this is all just my opinion and I don't expect you to agree with me.  For what it's worth, I'd be willing to bet that if you talked to him and got him to drop the attitude and go to HTC, hat in hand, they'd let him back in on at least a conditional basis.


SOB
Three Times One Minus One.  Dayum!

Offline Raubvogel

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Some words from 9./JG 54 Staffelkapitän
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2001, 06:25:00 PM »
Santa, that's about the most rational post I've seen on the topic. <S>

btw...Schadenfreude is getting pleasure out of harming others, or enjoying the misfortune of other people.

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Raubvogel
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[This message has been edited by Raubvogel (edited 04-06-2001).]

Offline Animal

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Some words from 9./JG 54 Staffelkapitän
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2001, 06:37:00 PM »
I agree with SOB. And with you Santa.
No roadkill. No one on my squad liked Nath. That doesnt mean I have to not like him. I used to have a good time with him, as unlikely as that may sound.
HT undeniably had some reasons to kick him, but that doesnt make me happy about he getting banned forever.

And if you think people will dislike you because of your opinion, wich is quite valid, the people who do disrespect you for it, do not matter one bit anyways.

Offline AKcurly

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Some words from 9./JG 54 Staffelkapitän
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2001, 07:06:00 PM »
Nath is a young person and perhaps his judgement concerning social situations isn't well developed yet.

On the other hand, I've had some fun exchanges with Nath via channel one.  For the most part, they were in good fun.

I will miss the verbal exchanges with Nath; I will miss the opportunity to fly against him.

I think Nath should sit down and have a long conversation with himself.  I think Nath should swallow his pride and confess up -- he should apologize to Pyro and HiTech for disrupting their business.

I think Nath is a good kid.  If his IQ is 10% of his hand-to-eye coordination, he'll figure this out.

I hope that Pyro and HiTech will accept Nath's apology (if he makes it.)  The bottom line here is that it's just business.  It makes good sense to accept Nath back *if* they believe his apology is sincere.

Nath, swallow your pride and admit you screwed up, and come back.  You aren't through teaching me (through Nimitz.)  

AKcurly

Offline Kieran

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Some words from 9./JG 54 Staffelkapitän
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2001, 07:39:00 PM »
You're still ok with me, you pagan.  

Offline Nethawk

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Some words from 9./JG 54 Staffelkapitän
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2001, 07:45:00 PM »
Well put, and honorably said from the perspective of loyalty to your squad.

However, from the perspective of the entire community, quite frankly I would like to see a policy established from this incident.

As online sims go, the community here is largely a surprisingly pleasant mixture of maturity and fun-loving competitiveness, which is rare in any group of 200 or so "killers".  In this, we are very lucky.

When a newbie comes along and becomes disgruntled, there is generally a helpful response.  In time, the newbie realizes this is not an arcade game and hones his/her skills to the point where the game is enjoyable.  What the newbie also realizes very early on is that the players really are mature - there is little complaining or profanity, and public displays of arrogance are shockingly minimal.  The newbie grows into one of us, and begins to contribute just as most of us do.

We can give each other a bow for that, because we are all responsible.

The extreme should not be tolerated, nor should we have to succomb to repeated displays of public disruptive behavior that take away from the enjoyment of the game.  Nath never bothered me personally, but I still had to put up with it, and it generally resulted in squelching the public channel.  I shouldn't have to repeatedly give in to the negative feelings of one individual and lose out on what others have to say.  I, like everyone else, am here to enjoy myself and as much of that enjoyment is the atmosphere that its players have created as it is in experiencing a great online flightsim.

My opinion is not intended to single one individual out, though I am rudely taking this opportunity to voice my message.  If you don't enjoy the game, find something else to do - life is too short to be spent otherwise, and if you are malicious enough to ruin others' enjoyment, we don't want you around.  End of story.

Your squad would do the truly honorable thing by cutting your losses and setting an example that we would largely applaud.

 

Offline Vladd

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Some words from 9./JG 54 Staffelkapitän
« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2001, 08:24:00 PM »
Nice post Santa...

I've been the subject of a tirade by Nath, and it didn't faze me one little bit. But that's because I knew what he was like, and the fact that he made the fatal mistake of actually posting a picture of himself on the BBS sure helped. Difficult to take a hostile gangsta fighter ace seriously when you know he's a actually a harmless-looking, middle class, 16 year old white kid  

If I hadn't known all this, I might have got pretty hostile myself. Or just quit, if I was, say, a WB regular trying AH for the first time.

I only shot him down once, in a scenario, when he flew his 190 into a pack of Spits and started turning. Dweebish? Nope, I believe he was trying to save a less competant squaddie at the time.

I'm sure you're right about the other side to his character. He's obviously both smart and a genuine enthusiast. And I will miss the chance to fight his 190s and 109s in the MA, no question.

But he really needs to learn from this.

Myself, I feel no hostility to Nath; However, he could have been a great asset to the community, but he either didn't know how or chose to go the other way. Ultimately, you reap what you sow.


Vladd  


BTW Santa: "I am the light at the end of your sorry little tunnel."  -  U a Sisters fan or just liked the quote?


Offline Citabria

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Some words from 9./JG 54 Staffelkapitän
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2001, 09:07:00 PM »
my most telling encounter with nathbdp as my adversary was my last one a while back. I was e fighting a zeke which I realized was nath after he taunted me repeatedly daring me to dogfight him. he hit one of my p38s engines as I b&z'd his zeke so I ran like a girl for base but was two far and the zeke caught my 1 engined twin and blew me up. we proceeded to get into a word battle and traded insults. then I said...

"Citabria: what the hell are we fighting about?"
"Nath: dunno, wanna wing?"
"Citabria: sure"


winged up and tore the heck out of everything in sight and got along famously.

its the nature of the game to be adversarial and it is easy to lose sight of the fact that the guys on the other team are not your enemy, even when they wipe the floor with you. the sting of defeat can be agrivating. how you choose to deal with it will determine the enjoyment you receive from sims like these.

it's easy to smile when things are going your way.

nath's a good person. he just needs to work on his temper and sportsmanship under adversity and so do a great many others including myself.
Fester was my in game name until September 2013

Offline Hajo

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Some words from 9./JG 54 Staffelkapitän
« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2001, 11:23:00 PM »
Not to get on any one side of the matter, from my perspective, being older then most in here, many of you are probably my son and daughters age or less <G> (not telling age) I appreciate what stsanta stated in defense of his squadmate.   stsanta for "sticking your neck out!"

secondly being the age I am, I've been down this path once my self, and got to relive a couple more times with my children <G> that we are all individuals, and some learn later in life that there are social resposibilities that have to be observed.  this is not defending anyone in particular, just stating a fact.

It is important that someone make sure that individuals learn these responsiblities, and that they don't have to be monitored every minute to make sure that they do so.  some might call this "growing up".  I guess they'd call it that, I dunno, I haven't got there yet. But being a human being, I had to make mistakes and learn, if I made the mistake more then once, shame on me, my father had a nice black belt, and it wasn't in Karate <G>

I guess my point is this, people have given me second chances, I've needed a lot of them. Luckily these second chances were given to me.  If I'd hadn't gotten them who knows.  but I learned, I apologized, and fewer mistakes were made on my part.  thinking before speaking was one of them.  If they were warned repeatedly about misbehavior on the terms of agreement, then I guess what happened was warranted. as I said in another post, hopefully something was learned, HT and Pyro had to do what they did.  and maybe, who knows, second chances aren't unheard of.

Haj
o
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Offline StSanta

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Some words from 9./JG 54 Staffelkapitän
« Reply #13 on: April 07, 2001, 05:22:00 AM »
Hm, thanks for the responses guys. It's given me renewed hope for the community and I think everyone has presented their POV in a rational, civil way. <S!> to you for that; i excepted to be flamed so bad I'd thought I was back in hell.

Vladd: I'm a bigtime and longtime Sisters fan. Got all their records and tons of bootlegs  . Eldricht is one of the cooler dudes on this plant IMHO. Hope to catch them next time they're close by Denmark.

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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
Staffelkapitän 9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"If you return from a mission with a victory, but without your Rottenflieger, you have lost your battle."
- D. Hrabak, JG 54 "Grünherz"

Offline LLv34_Camouflage

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Some words from 9./JG 54 Staffelkapitän
« Reply #14 on: April 07, 2001, 05:24:00 AM »
<S>

Good luck with the negotiations 9./JG54!

Camo

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