Some words from 9./JG 54 Staffelkapitän

[milnko]

Well, not to wander to far from the topic;

Last night on RW we were discussing having a lottery on the next to go, seems a certain someone (I hesitate to use his name, but his eye sight is poor) was really pestering HiTech, while HT was in player mode, we watched the buffer waiting fer HT to finally snap, but NO JOY!

However we did discuss that we thought HTC was being a bit harsh lately with the PERMANET bans, be more just I feel to do a temp ban to drive home the point before goin' full on persona non-gratis with em

[Staga]

I've always believed that I'm capable to take care of myself;
Without needing anyone to tell me how to live, who to listen, who to squelch etc. I do have my limits I obey.

Right now I feel kinda weird because obliviously HTC don't trust I'm capable to use squelch-command...
Guess there are people who don't know how to squelch someone so here's a instructions: In text-buffer type .squelch PlayerID and problem is solved.

Everyone has a right to tell his opinions to me and I have a right to ignore/squelch that person but what I don't have is a power to remove someone from community because his thoughts/words.
Nazis, Communists and Red Khmers were good at this btw  

I do understand HTC is a small company with its own responsibilities but for me it looks like the tools they're using are little "OverKill".

[Kieran]

The gist of my post was this; how do most of us know what HTC has done with anyone privately before their public expulsion? Should the details of those private dealings be made public now? No.

Maybe some of you haven't been here long enough to know, maybe some don't remember. This isn't the first banning to occur in the game. In the last instance it was rescinded after a period of time. That person may or may not still be playing, but this is not the first time down this path, friends. See, for those thinking the sky is falling you should realize this isn't going to be an all pervasive activity.

Yes, I was on last night when a certain individual started needling HT. HT told him to knock it off, which as far as I know the person did. I have to say if I'm a betting man I would agree that if he doesn't soon find a different way to enjoy AH he may soon find himself on the outside looking in. Once again, it will be his choice.

[This message has been edited by Kieran (edited 04-08-2001).]

[Kieran]

 

Everyone has a right to tell his opinions to me and I have a right to ignore/squelch that person but what I don't have is a power to remove someone from community because his thoughts/words.
Nazis, Communists and Red Khmers were good at this btw

Don't you find this to be the least bit hyperbolic?

Try to understand something here- if HTC tells you every bit of the history they have had with people that have been banned they violate their rights to privacy. If they don't explain, their actions are viewed as arbitrary and capricious. This is a no-win situation. Again I can assure you I live in this environment every day and I deeply sympathize with HTC here.

HTC is being forced into the position of being the "bad guy", despite the fact it is a few of the customers that are misbehaving. Sounds pretty screwed up, doesn't it? Temporary bans? They might work, but how do you know they haven't already been used? Further, I don't think it is much of a "stick". The defiant players will often respond with "so what, I was going to be gone for a few days anyway, no big deal". All we wind up having then is a dragging out of an inevitable ending.

The point is this for anyone who is missing it; you have to have a history of misconduct to receive a permament ban. There is no evidence to the contrary. Those references to "Gestapo, Communists, Khmer Rouge" etc. are way out of line.

[Jigster]

The main problem I really have with it now is the way HT chose to go about it.

This should of not of been done openly in the arena.

[Revvin]

While I think its admirable for StSanta to stick by his squad mate you can't ignore what Nath has done, I'm not wallowing in his demise, I did'nt really know him well enough or indeed get on the wrong side of one of his rants so I don't have any feelings either way. I have however in the past seen him rant and blow off a few times and he's got away with it and perhaps this is the problem, I've seen it so many times before online either in game arenas or forums. One guy who's been around the game/forum for a while starts to build a bit of an ego and think he can pretty much do what he wants and in this case Nath overstepped the mark I don't like to see anyone get booted but enough is enough and HTC have to firmly draw a line in the sand so that everyone knows where the boundaries are.

Jigster> By all accounts he was warned by HTC to knock his antics off and just play but he chose to ignore the warning, squelching can become counter-productive...can you imagine an very disgruntled Nath not only spouting off in the arena but then carryng it on into the forum like others have done after being squelched. By botting him there and then he stopped this happening and the bad atmosphere Nath started online was contained there and did not spill onto the forums.

As for the comments comparing the actions taken to Nazis, Communists etc are just theatrically way over the top and typical of people defending someone or something that was so obviously wrong, freedom of speech is one thing but you have no defense when you abuse that right.

HTC has done what they have done to continue to propogate a nice welcoming atmosphere for players to join and a showcase for those on trial thinking about joining Aces High. People like Nath do untold damage to HTC's business when their ego's give them a sense of being untouchable just because they've been around a while.

While some might say HTC's ban was harsh lets just remember Nath had been warned and I'm sure all it would have taken was for Nath to put aside his ego and make an unequivocal apology but judging by his recent locked post in the forum he has made some sort of apology but its far from unequivocal as his post in the forum still smacks of somebody that cannot see what he did wrong and this is only highlighted by his bending the rules again to fly in a scenario on someone else's account.

[darling]

I may not be an "old-timer" like most of the guys who have posted to this thread, but I have been playing in the online community for most of 10 years (Muds, Doom, quake, q2, q3, AH). I have lead three quake clans, and I have to respect your post StSanta.

I've had to deal with several unruly clan members in my time (my last q3 clan numbered over 40 people), and I know how hard it can be to stand up for them, sometimes having to offer clan disciplining to the managers of the very tightnit Icelandic Quake community. The reason though, for my leaving the community behind, was unruly youngsters. They simply ruined the game for me, with badmouthing, constant needling, and even hacking. Out of 1000 active members of the Quake Federation of Iceland, only 2 have ever been permanently banned though. Many have gotten trial bans, and they invariably came back better for it. In light of this I fully support some form of discipline for the AH members. A permanent ban is maybe a little too firm, and I hope that HTC will lift this ban after some time, and give Nath a second chance.
My opinion of Nath has no bearing, but I will offer it nonetheless. He is a good pilot, yes, but so are very many others. He's shot me down, I've shot him down, but that's just part of the game.

I hope this matter will be resolved without the neccessity of a permanent ban.

Regards
Darling

[-tronski-]

 Actually Toad the reference to Counterstrike was to give balance to the nature of Nath's comments.

There are far far worse online people in this world, and the shock and horror displayed at Nath is laughable.
More amusing is the "1930's RAF officers Club" mentality in the handling of this minor problem.
They haven't solved the problem, but merely moved it along, until the next guy comes along.

Temp banning should've been the solution in my opinion.

 Tronsky

[Glasses]

Who might that be milenko I don't know anyone like that.  

------------------
Glasses---I may have 4 eyes ,but you only have one wing.
Besser tot als rot

[Dowding]

Santa, what's with the <The Pariahs> note on your MA squad name? Is this tongue-in-cheek?

It simply comes across as melodramatic and pretentious. It also implies that the whole of your squadron is actively targetted by HTC and the AH 'community'. You know this is complete BS.

Perhaps you ought to edit it to read <We have a Pariah complex>.  

Nath was actively abrasive in just about every comment he made, either online or offline. He repeatedly went too far and HT was well within his rights to ban him. I don't care if he was 'a good stick', that is irrelevant.

You say that his style was that of a 'Grünherzjäger' and list attributes associated with your squad. But you fail to see that there was no good humour in any of Nath's remarks, unlike those I have seen you make. He aimed to annoy and offend and above all attention seek. He is a kid, sure, but that should not excuse his behaviour. Perhaps he'll learn a few lessons from this whole debacle - it would be a missed opportunity if he doesn't.

This is obviously just my opinion.  

[Ripsnort]

I don't have an opinion on Nath either way.(I noted that I never saw him <S> anyone for a fight he lost, but that's a subject of nurturing more than anything else)

I do, however, have a strict guideline for my squad that we follow, and it boils down this this: Treat others with respect.

This is a close knit community.

I doubt HiTech has banned him permanently from AH, maybe a month suspension, but HiTech is a rational human being...unless Nath was caught 'hacking' (doubt it), he'll be back.

I would suggest to any squad that hasn't done so already to have a clear and concise 'Rules and Regulations' of online behavior, because you'll be doing EVERYONE a favor, including yourself.  Like I said, ours is short and sweet, "Do not harass folks unless its tongue in cheek, do not threaten anyone bodily harm and treat others with respect".  Not those exact words, but that sums it up.

[AKSeaWulfe]

 

Originally posted by Ripsnort:
I would suggest to any squad that hasn't done so already to have a clear and concise 'Rules and Regulations' of online behavior, because you'll be doing EVERYONE a favor, including yourself.  Like I said, ours is short and sweet, "Do not harass folks unless its tongue in cheek, do not threaten anyone bodily harm and treat others with respect".  Not those exact words, but that sums it up.

I'd like to add this is not something new or unfathombly impossible to do. Netiquette has been around since Mr. Gore invented the internet. ;-)

Trick is: Treat people online like you would in real life. Don't be an bellybutton just 'cuz you can, you start to look like a Luftwiener wearing leather (don't make me re-post Santa's picture).
-SW

[StSanta]

Dowding, it could possibly be seen as a yellow pink invicible unicorn. Or a tongue in cheek comment. Or an answer to the question about the General MishMash, should such an answer exist.

It's also possible that it's a self ironic humorous comment set there to make a point. But I wouldn't bet on that, knowing from where the idea originated.

One could see it as a little test; people will read into it how they see the squad. in your case, like a collection of victimized pompoused gits who feel sorry for themselves and targetted because they've lost two members to bans in as many days.

But that might probably most definitely maybe be perhaps something assembling the truest of falsehoods. Again, I could be wrong about it.

Rip you have an excellent point I agree with.

We got general guidelines, such as LW only and the need to be arrogant Preussian aristocrats who're looking down at anything non LW and letting our contempt of such things known as often as possible  .

I believe I shouldn't police others and they shouldn't police me, in general terms and in how they express humour or sarcasm. Glasses does it in a different way than I do, and Nath rather harshly expressed his opinions which he in my book is entitled to. Kirin does it in an elegant smooth like glass style full of subtelties, and VoX is always ready with a few naughty words. Glunz's laid back sarcasm is unmistakeable, and I can tell pirado by the way he puts things, even if he'd hide from under a different handle. Habicht's approach is as compromising as a freight train bearing down on a lame deer tied to a cement block put on the railway tracks.

Who am I to judge them on the way they express themselves, unless it is grossly out of place, just trash filled with profanity and childish talk? I have in the past talked to members about such behaviour and will do it again if needed, but I do not think it's in my place to police unless absolutely necessary. Knowing me, I'd be an evil tyrant in no time  

And as Toad would say, it's about freedom and responsibility.  We're just a bunch of dudes that hang out and fly together. And I really like these dudes company. With friends, you cannot just select desrieable traits and eliminate unwanted ones. You take what you get, pros and cons.

Ugh, soap box mode again. I hate myself when I'm on the soap box like this, telling people what they already know  . Sorry, but I just want my position to be clear even if it means repeating what you chaps already know.



------------------
Von Santa
Staffelkapitän 9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"If you return from a mission with a victory, but without your Rottenflieger, you have lost your battle."
- D. Hrabak, JG 54 "Grünherz"

[Dowding]

I don't see you squad as anything other than a collection of individuals who like LW planes. I choose to dislike or like each one on merit, not simply because they happen to fly under some pretend squadron affiliation.

I did not say you were all a bunch of egotistical, pompous self-obsessives (apart from Nath, the rest of your squad have always seemed like good lads), just the way it looked from the outside.

I don't know why, I guess I'm just intrigued, but could you elaborate on why the comment appeared in your squadron tag? And you can dispense with the need to 'smokescreen' the issue with a coverall 'It means whatever it means to you' statement. I think that is what you were saying in your last post.  

BTW, who is the second person to be booted from AH? I don't really have time to browse the BB at the moment.

[R4M]

 

Originally posted by Dowding:
I don't know why, I guess I'm just intrigued, but could you elaborate on why the comment appeared in your squadron tag?

Maybe it has to do with the fact that I'll be joining them soon