High Speed vs. Tight Turns

[Tank-Ace]

But do the dive flaps allow a pitch angle that you can not achieve using elevator alone?  A turn is limited in game by blackout or stall.  If the elevator control can get you to either of those limits the flaps do not help you.

Probably. I'm not an expert on the P-38, but if the dive flaps just made use of existing controll surfaces and moved no more than their usual range of motion, well then they wouldn't be dive flaps, now would they?

The question is though, how much of an advantage in turn rate do you get for how big of a drop in speed. If you can pull an additional 1.5 degrees per second, but it would drop you down to 200mph inside of 2 turns, it wouldn't be worth it.

You probably couldn't get guns on before you decelerated too much, at which point your opponent would then procede to beat the f**k out of you with superior E.

[Debrody]

Jager, you dont get it.
Its like a chess game, your every move can be used against you.

You must find the balance between burning more E and turn tighter (within the 6g limit, til the stall becames the limiting factor) and maintaining your E. The key is to be just a little bit slower than your opponent.
Some planes have very good tools for this: see the 190s large rudder, the pony's, jug's 400mph combat flaps, the 38s dive flaps, etc. Still, theese are only nuances, and if you cant get a killer shot on the opponent within those 3-4 turns til you slow down enough to reach the stall, its just a normal stallfight again.

Still, i have been called a cheater many times, how can a Dora outturn a lala? The answer is, no way. I just burned more E and could pull more degrees/second when i was just a bit slower, in a blackout-limited situation of course.

[RTHolmes]

...

... This is why high wingloading planes can still be good dogfighters - as long as the fight is at high speeds.

...

nice explanation without having to pull out the dreaded E-M diagrams

[Tank-Ace]

Jager, you dont get it.
Its like a chess game, your every move can be used against you.

You must find the balance between burning more E and turn tighter (within the 6g limit, til the stall becames the limiting factor) and maintaining your E. The key is to be just a little bit slower than your opponent.
Some planes have very good tools for this: see the 190s large rudder, the pony's, jug's 400mph combat flaps, the 38s dive flaps, etc. Still, theese are only nuances, and if you cant get a killer shot on the opponent within those 3-4 turns til you slow down enough to reach the stall, its just a normal stallfight again.

Still, i have been called a cheater many times, how can a Dora outturn a lala? The answer is, no way. I just burned more E and could pull more degrees/second when i was just a bit slower, in a blackout-limited situation of course.

You kinda missed what I meant. If you slow down to 200mph, when your opponent is doing 350, thats really too large of a difference for you to be able to compete in an E fight. You want to be slower, yes, but you don't want to get 150mph slower either. Even if you have a plane known for its zooms and hanging on the prop (say, a Ki-84), it still won't be able to compensate for that big of a difference in energy if your opponent decides to take the fight verticle.

So, you need to assess whether using the dive flaps (or any flaps, for that matter) will give you a large enough benefit, and do so fast enough to make your move, before the fight shifts.

I just used a large difference to exagerate the point, nothing more.

[Babalonian]

you forgot overstressing

If you're heavy and at high speeds (with ord or still have a lot of fuel onboard), listen and treat those stress creak sounds for the warning that they are.

[nrshida]

Even if you have a plane known for its zooms and hanging on the prop (say, a Ki-84), it still won't be able to compensate for that big of a difference in energy if your opponent decides to take the fight verticle.

I would not myself count good zoom climbs as one of the Ki-84's attributes.

[titanic3]

I would not myself count good zoom climbs as one of the Ki-84's attributes.

Hmm, it has above average acceleration, maybe if you compared it to a La-7 or K4, then it wouldn't be a very "good" attribute, but compared to most other planes, it will keep up or out climb them all.

[nrshida]

But not by virtue of its ability to zoom. What you are describing is a good sustained climb rate, which is different. For a good zoom you need a high mass and / or a very slippery aerodynamic shape and in my observations many aircraft will out zoom the Hayate. Regarding hanging on the prop, it takes considerably more skill to do that in the Hayate than in a late model Bf109, or a P-38 for example.

Not being picky, just trying to make a contribution.

[bozon]

Of all the planes I tested, that while not the entire plane-set include all the common fighters, the Yak-9U is the best zoomer. Tests were started at 0 alt and 300 mph level. The range of the result for most planes was relatively small. Zooming 100 ft higher than your opponent will not save you from his bullets. How the plane handles in the zoom and recovers has greater importance in most cases. The rest is just initial energy difference when starting the maneuver, not so much the plane itself.

[nrshida]

Also a significant factor with the Ki-84 is altitude, above 7k the supercharger loses effectiveness so that even a Spitfire Mark IX out climbs it, believe it or not.

Both the Spitfire Mark VIII and the Mark XVI out climb the Hayate at all altitudes by a good margin.

[Tank-Ace]

Whatever. The Ki-84 can play the energy game at lower altitudes, which is where most fights take place, and thats whats important for my comment.

The point is that, even if you ARE in something thats great in the verticle, you still can't work against a 150mph speed differential.


Exactly which planes are used in the hypothetical fight isn't really important, so long as one is better in the verticle than the other.

[nrshida]

Whatever. The Ki-84 can play the energy game at lower altitudes, which is where most fights take place, and thats whats important for my comment.

The point is that, even if you ARE in something thats great in the verticle, you still can't work against a 150mph speed differential.


Exactly which planes are used in the hypothetical fight isn't really important, so long as one is better in the verticle than the other.

You don't seem to think distinguishing between sustained climb and zoom climb is important.

[Tank-Ace]

You don't seem to think distinguishing between sustained climb and zoom climb is important.

In the scenario I was refering to, its really not.


A 109K, a spit 14, a 190, a P-38, P-47, or a Yak-9U all are incapable of reaching a higher altitude in a climb strait up at 90 degrees AoA with full throttle and WEP than the Ki-84, if they're at 200mph when the Ki-84 is at 350mph.


It could be a 262 at 200mph and a 190 at 350mph, or an A6M at 200mph and a P-40C at 350mph and the outcome would remain the same; the faster plane ends at a higher altitude than the slower plane, and the faster plane is then in a possition of advantage over the slower plane.


Now clearly each plane's ability to fight from a possition of disadvantage, or to escape the fight is different, and also varies with the altitude the fight is occuring at, but the point remains the same; a slight advantage in turn is not worth slowing down to 150mph below your opponent's speed.

[nrshida]

I don't know what you fly or what your style is, but to me it's not much of a fight what you are describing above (I just picked up on inaccurate descriptions of the Hayate's capabilities), a 150 mph speed difference in the vert is more of one plane completely outclassing another in energy state. I don't think Debrody was discussing that situation.

[Debrody]

I don't know what you fly or what your style is, but to me it's not much of a fight what you are describing above (I just picked up on inaccurate descriptions of the Hayate's capabilities), a 150 mph speed difference in the vert is more of one plane completely outclassing another in energy state. I don't think Debrody was discussing that situation.

This.
Whats obvious, thats obvious and i did not meant to go circles around it.