What to do about the P-51D scourge?

[bj229r]

There are no such stats available.
However, we can look at kills of Air-to-Ground kills and Ground-to-Air deaths combines as a (weak) substitution:

(Image removed from quote.)

Of course it's only showing part of the picture, especially in terms of offensive vs defensive attack missions. Spit 16s are mostly used defensively, while P-51 are much more being used on strikes into enemy territory.

I was thinking of RL....mostly, WHY would you  send a radiator plane to do risky low level stuff when the jug is available?

[Triton28]

I was thinking of RL....mostly, WHY would you  send a radiator plane to do risky low level stuff when the jug is available?

My understanding is late in the war they were running out of planes to shoot down in the air.  Gotta use those bullets for something, I suppose.

[Karnak]

If the P47 was anywhere near the P51D in terms of low level flying then it would be the norm since it can carry another 500 lb bomb and another pair of rockets, AND another pair of .50 cals with plenty more ammo to spare.  However, the P51D can bring down a hanger all by its lonesome with its current max ordnance and once the ordnance is gone then it shines as a vulcher.  The P51D can do it all better than the P47 down low in terms of plane performance, obviously the jug can bring more ordnance weight to the party but it isnt needed.

P-47D-40 or P-47N actually carry four more rockets than the P-51D in addition to the extra 500lb bomb and two .50 cals with lots of ammo.  As to the P-38L, the rocket trees cost it 1mph on the deck after the rockets are gone, 344mph instead of 345mph.

I still say FLY A FASTER PLANE. Or you could watch for a large dar bar and intercept it before it hits the base.

Not everyone who isn't a major fan of the P-51D wants to fly La-7s.

[SmokinLoon]

P-47D-40 or P-47N actually carry four more rockets than the P-51D in addition to the extra 500lb bomb and two .50 cals with lots of ammo.  As to the P-38L, the rocket trees cost it 1mph on the deck after the rockets are gone, 344mph instead of 345mph.Not everyone who isn't a major fan of the P-51D wants to fly La-7s.

Sorry, I was thinking a "pair of rockets per wing".  Yes, the extra ordnance on the P47 was pointed out.  The jug is a better ground pounder thanks to all the extra ords, but when a horde can assign a single P51D to a single hanger and get the job done THEN be on vulcher duty why take a jug that is over-kill for the role and a quite a bit behind the P51 down low in terms of CAP performance (turn, accelerate, climb, etc).

[guncrasher]

If all they wanted was max load they would fly the P-47N/D-40 or P-38, but how often do you see that? The only times I can remember it was when they had eny restrictions on the Pony D.

Also there is a big difference between the other bombtrucks and the pony D, once a pony drops it will be 20-40mph quicker then all the others. And some like the lighting would be even slower as their rocket rail trees, cause high drag. Then you take into account skill levels in the average horde. The dive/compress/drop bomb before death dance would become much more common if the P-38 was the plane of choice, and not many know how to make the jug work without 3-4000ft to BnZ with.

The only reason the pony is used so much, is once the ords are away it is a good fighter with a forgiving attitude.

If the P47 was anywhere near the P51D in terms of low level flying then it would be the norm since it can carry another 500 lb bomb and another pair of rockets, AND another pair of .50 cals with plenty more ammo to spare.  However, the P51D can bring down a hanger all by its lonesome with its current max ordnance and once the ordnance is gone then it shines as a vulcher.  The P51D can do it all better than the P47 down low in terms of plane performance, obviously the jug can bring more ordnance weight to the party but it isnt needed.

I totally agree with both of you guys.  but remember the only reason they use the pony is not to fight in it.  but to drop and run away.  most people who fly the pony have no idea how to fly it.  heck I have been flying it for almost 2 years now and I still have a lot to learn.  but the guys who bring the ponyd with 2 1k bombs and rockets more than likely will drop and run or do it with 20 friends around, and then it wont matter if you are in a ponyd or the p47.

perking the pony, giving it a lower eny for ods or even taking the perkies away wont stop those who only want to horde in it.  and that is where the problem is.  people forget that you can always switch to another plane that will have just as much ords and run away.

fish how many times did we up a20's when the fh where down and killed the bunch of wanna be vulchers and pickers because once they dropped their ords and rockets  they didnt know what to do as they couldnt fly their airplane.


semp


semp

[Karnak]

I like it when the P-51ds fight.  I even get amusement out of running down and killing a radar/fuel/troops/ammo porking P-51D in my ostensibly slow Mossie.

I'd just like more variety and if the P-51D usage trend isn't halted it may just get worse.

[RTHolmes]

cant remember the last time I flew a pony until a coupla nights ago in MW, just a ludicrously easy plane to fly, aim, get kills in and land. even with 4 guns I 3-passed a set of B-26s without losing more than ~1k of E. headed towards a high 38 and after some rolling scissors foolery ended up in a stall fight. whoever said the pony cant fly under 200mph earlier is having a laugh - its docile and predictably under 100mph with very usable flaps and good acceleration. slowly gained advantage but got bored so decided to disengage. I was 2k away and doing 350 before the 38 even got pointed my way ...

[Ripley]

cant remember the last time I flew a pony until a coupla nights ago in MW, just a ludicrously easy plane to fly, aim, get kills in and land. even with 4 guns I 3-passed a set of B-26s without losing more than ~1k of E. headed towards a high 38 and after some rolling scissors foolery ended up in a stall fight. whoever said the pony cant fly under 200mph earlier is having a laugh - its docile and predictably under 100mph with very usable flaps and good acceleration. slowly gained advantage but got bored so decided to disengage. I was 2k away and doing 350 before the 38 even got pointed my way ...

That would be me, saying that under 250mph a 51D starts to dog it in the turn fight. Being in the mid war arena you would have been flying a B, and a B is a different plane, that (to my knowledge) is a little more maneuverable than the D pony at slow speeds. Try the same in a D at low altitude and you will find yourself in a heap of trouble real fast as soon as you lose your high speed rate of turn. too many planes out accelerate the D at ground level.

[whiteman]

catch us if u can

FIFY

[Vinkman]

ponys are by no means uber. they are fast, so they have escapability. But they are average turners, average climbers, and average guns. Kill ratios for Ponies is only about 1, (recallection, didn't look it up) and my kill ratio against ponies last tour was about 4 to 1.

I just think a lot of folks fly them because or romantic notions and escapability. I dont think eny changes will effect their usage.  I think that if score took into account eny, then it might. but eny enough wont change anything.

my two cents   

[Rino]

WOULD like to see some usage stats on the 51 as an attacker vs the Jug...WHY would you use a deep-penetration escort as a jabo when you have the now increasingly obsolete, NON-radiator Jug?

     Earl Miller was an AW pilot who actually flew P-39s and P-47s in combat in the Med and over the Po valley in Italy.  He said they
ALWAYS carried 500 lbers.  In fact he would trim his aircraft to "unload" at 3000 when he dive bombed specifically because the weight
of the bombs would allow his to drop accurately at that speed and altitude.

[MK-84]

Sorry, I was thinking a "pair of rockets per wing".  Yes, the extra ordnance on the P47 was pointed out.  The jug is a better ground pounder thanks to all the extra ords, but when a horde can assign a single P51D to a single hanger and get the job done THEN be on vulcher duty why take a jug that is over-kill for the role and a quite a bit behind the P51 down low in terms of CAP performance (turn, accelerate, climb, etc).

I very rarely see anyone on vulcher duty, It amazes me how much effort goes into taking out the FH's (which are down for 15 minutes) vs simply deacking the field, which is 30min (15 for manned) or more.

But it just doesnt happen.

[BaldEagl]

I haven't read every post but my observation is that not all P-51D drivers are carrying ord.  At the same time those that aren't are rarely flying alone.  When I run into them there are 2, 3, 4, 5 or more and they are willing to fight my Spit.  I say God bless them.  They've at least gotten beyond fighting buildings.  I've fought many multi Pony groups.  It's often a chess match and it's fun.

The P-51 (along with the Spit) was probably the most iconic fighter aircraft of WWII.  Sorry other fighter supporters; the Zekes, 109's and 190's are close seconds but lets face it; when you think of WWII these birds are most commonly mentioned.  To try to limit it's use in the game is futile no matter how you attempt it.

I will say this... after reading the beginning of this thread I'm considering parking my Spits, 109's and 190's and spending some time in a D Pony.  My brothers would be proud.  One built a (very large) RC of Cripes A Mighty and the other chastises me regularly for not flying American planes in the game.

[kvuo75]

I very rarely see anyone on vulcher duty, It amazes me how much effort goes into taking out the FH's (which are down for 15 minutes) vs simply deacking the field, which is 30min (15 for manned) or more.

But it just doesnt happen.

I can speak to this.

most vulchers do not de-ack. if they dont get the hangars down, they just fly thru the ack, desperate for that one kill of that guy rolling down a runway at 20mph. I catch a fair amount of them. probably half of the 400 kills i got in field guns last month.

i've had the signature "kill the manned ack" for at least 2 years. it still amazes me how people do not do it.


last tour, 411 kills in 37mm field gun:


http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/newscores/killsin.php?playername=kvuo75&kcnt=411&selectTour=LWTour153&pindex=36


why am I getting almost as many p51d's as lancs?

[bozon]

Some guys in manned acks are vicious. The problem with de-acking is that a cannon bird is required, or alternatively - rockets. The .50s are just not effective in this job. If you came in a pony and fired the rockets at the dar and hangars, you do not have effective means for de-acking. With very little practice, deacking by rockets is very easy and effective - 1 rocket per gun. If several planes are diving on the acks at the same time, the risk is minimal and several guns can be hit in one pass. When I take an F6F I often load rockets just for this purpose.