Dealing with High 109s and 190s

[Babalonian]

Even if you didn't film the fight in the MAs, you can send a player a PM (.p ink good fight) and sometimes it'll strike up a conversation, and sometimes that'll lead to some good advice for you from their perspective (or they have film from their perspective they could share).

[ink]

heck ya

[Tank-Ace]

I wouldnt say "all" MA birds but a good 3/4 of them. 109s, 190A5/D9, La-Las, Spits, Yak, Brews, Zeroes, N1K. Probably a few more I might have forgotten.

P38 vs P47, now that's a fun fight. I suppose if the Jug can't quickly dispatch the 38, the 38 will eventually get the upper hand.

This is in an equal E situation that is.

I'm a bit skeptical of that statment. A well-flown A5 will give a well-flown jug a fight. So will an La-7, or even a Spitfire. The slower birds I grant you, because theres almost nothing they can do about a P-47 with even a small-moderate E advantage.


But assuming equal skill level, in my opinion, any jug vs a K4, just because the K4 is such a damn monster when it comes to pure performance.

A jug vs a Lala runs into much the same problems.

P-51 has the advantage IMO, because it can keep up with the Jug in dives, handles better at low speed and alt, has roughly the same performance down low, and is more maneuverable.

A Yak-9 can also be a challenge.

Ki-84.



Just saying, skill-level being equal, the Jugs are at a disadvantage to many planes at low and low-medium alt.

[Karnak]

A spit16 that blew away all its speed to try and saddle up risks the M-Jug hitting its mega WEP and leaving it behind.

Um, no.  The Spit risks being saddled up on in turn or being picked, but unless he did an exceptionally bad job of blowing his E while saddling up there is no escape for the P-47M.  A P-47N tried to use that tactic to escape my D3A and I easily shot him down before he could escape.  The D3A's acceleration is pathetic compared to the Spitfire Mk XVI's.  Heck, the P-47M's acceleration is pathetic compared to the Spitfire Mk XVI's until well past 300mph.

[BaldEagl]

The 190 has almost no roll rate advantage over the P47 - numbers lie. When the roll rate is fast enough to challenge the reaction of the pilot, it does not matter any more. If you can do a 90 deg bank in 0.1, 0.01 or 0.001 seconds, it really does not matter,

This is not one bit true.  In scenarios flying a 190 I can keep any P-47 out of plane so badly I can force every one of them to overshoot or break off, even outnumbered.  In fact there's no plane in the set that even remotly matches the 190's roll rate.

Also to another of your comments, no Jug will out accelerate a Spit even with WEP.

A few other notes:

Most new players make the mistake of setting up their break turn far too early.  While you're turning hard to one side or the other your pursuer can take a much more gradual turn, burning less E and allowing plenty of time to set up a shot.  If the opponent is coming in from behind you have to wait until he's already in guns range to make your break turn.

As already mentioned, make him dive steeper if possible (turn under him).

Common wisdom says to turn into your opponent but if you can judge the skill of the other pilot you can show him your tail and drag him imto a high speed pursuit.  As long as he has closure on you you have the advantage because when you do finally make your break turn riding the tunnel he'll black out trying to follow.  In this case I like to begin my break turn in one direction then reverse half way through (much like a barrel roll defense) to end up on his six as he tries to escape.  The give him your tail approach immediately equalizes E states so you don't have to keep grinding away to make that heppen as you would with the turn into him or turn under him approachs.  The trick is learing when to use which tactic which is only done through trial and error.

People will tell you to dive away in a P-47.  A good Spit or 109 pilot will be in total control in a 500 mph dive and if you haven't gained sufficient seperation to run away when you've run out of alt you'll die.  The Spit will have to reduce throttle to follow your break turn while the 109 will have to trim elevators so they'll have to work a little harder but it's not that big a deal.  If you've got seperation to start this might work against some slower planes (A6M's and the like).  The 190 will eat a Jug alive in a high speed dive (600 mph+ with instant roll and turn authority).

[Tank-Ace]

People will tell you to dive away in a P-47.  A good Spit or 109 pilot will be in total control in a 500 mph dive and if you haven't gained sufficient seperation to run away when you've run out of alt you'll die.

I'd like to say that this is highly situational. While the Spit or 109 may be able to remain in control, they won't be able to maneuver as well. Also, while both aircraft have their aces, by and large they aren't outstanding, though I would say that is slightly more true of the spitfire than the 109.

Odds are that the 'typical' spit or 109 you encounter will be incapable of maintaining secure control over their aircraft at such speeds, and will be able to fight nearly so effectively from a slight disadvantage, or even an even footing.

The Spit will have to reduce throttle to follow your break turn while the 109 will have to trim elevators so they'll have to work a little harder but it's not that big a deal.

Like I said, the dive should be made more to equalize the E-state, and grab an advantage in possition while your opponent is at a slight disadvantage in maneuvering. Really, you're just trying to get to a possition where you can make an actual fight of things, rather than hanging around at 5k and 250mph, trying to evade BnZ attacks.

I mean if its a later model 109, or a 190D, you can't escape him anyway without some considerable seperation.

If you've got seperation to start this might work against some slower planes (A6M's and the like).  The 190 will eat a Jug alive in a high speed dive (600 mph+ with instant roll and turn authority).

No arguments here.

[Randy1]

Also to another of your comments, no Jug will out accelerate a Spit even with WEP.

A few other notes:

Most new players make the mistake of setting up their break turn far too early.  While you're turning hard to one side or the other your pursuer can take a much more gradual turn, burning less E and allowing plenty of time to set up a shot.  If the opponent is coming in from behind you have to wait until he's already in guns range to make your break turn.

As already mentioned, make him dive steeper if possible (turn under him).

People will tell you to dive away in a P-47.  A good Spit or 109 pilot will be in total control in a 500 mph dive and if you haven't gained sufficient seperation to run away when you've run out of alt you'll die.  . . . .The 190 will eat a Jug alive in a high speed dive (600 mph+ with instant roll and turn authority).

I agree with this from the P47 side.  I have tried to out dive a 109 and it hasn't worked using just a straight dive.  109s are very difficult for me to deal with on a one on one  P47M vs 109.  I guess that is why there are so many i109s are in the MA.  I can do better with them in a furbal where I can make climbing turns.

I have a long way to go to get the most out of a 47M but I am getting there.

[Tank-Ace]

I agree with this from the P47 side.  I have tried to out dive a 109 and it hasn't worked using just a straight dive.  109s are very difficult for me to deal with on a one on one  P47M vs 109.  I guess that is why there are so many i109s are in the MA.  I can do better with them in a furbal where I can make climbing turns.

I have a long way to go to get the most out of a 47M but I am getting there.

IDK, situation may have changed since I left, but there seemed to be relatively few 109's in the MA's only a bit more than a year ago.

I never would have called them rare, or anything; its not like could go to a decent sized fight and not see at LEAST one. But I never would have called them 'common' either, at least not overall.

It seems to me you're either just noticing them more because you're having problems with them, or you're flying at an altitude band thats a hot-spot for 109's.


Try flying higher. All aircraft tend to thin out with altidue, and anything 10K and higher significantly increases the odds that any 109 you'll bump into will be either a G-model packing gondies for buff hunting, or a K-4, in which case you're either screwed or are in for a fight.

Also, 190's become rather rare at high altidue since they cap out for speed at only 21K or so, and only crack 400mph which isn't stellar (the K4 can almost make 400mph at 5k for comparison). Go very high, and you'll start bumping into Ta-152's every now and then.

[Oldman731]

Most new players make the mistake of setting up their break turn far too early. 

Agreed.

- oldman

[bozon]

Um, no.  The Spit risks being saddled up on in turn or being picked, but unless he did an exceptionally bad job of blowing his E while saddling up there is no escape for the P-47M.
<snip>
Heck, the P-47M's acceleration is pathetic compared to the Spitfire Mk XVI's until well past 300mph.

Also to another of your comments, no Jug will out accelerate a Spit even with WEP.

At what speed? A jug should never ever be caught on the defense at less than 200-250 mph. I assume that the OP was discussing an encounter with a 109/190, not being picked after coming out of another stall fight at 150 mph. As Karnak mentioned, the Jug will start pulling ahead around 300 mph, which is reached very fast when starting at 250. The rest is when running level or in a shallow dive. Seriously, a P51 never flew away from your spit? It has no better acceleration than the M and top speed at typical altitudes is not much higher either.

I agree with this from the P47 side.  I have tried to out dive a 109 and it hasn't worked using just a straight dive.

You will not dive away if the bandit is faster than you to begin with. I am not talking about a terminal speed competition. In addition, the 109 is not there to race you, it is here to shoot you down. Roll while you dive, never let him match his roll aspect with yours. Keep it 90--120 degrees off an add an occasional small jink, so from his aspect you move to the side or under his nose. If he tries to aim with his rudder he will slow down. With 190s you fake an escape and then hit the brakes and suck them into rolling scissors.

This is not one bit true.  In scenarios flying a 190 I can keep any P-47 out of plane so badly I can force every one of them to overshoot or break off, even outnumbered.  In fact there's no plane in the set that even remotly matches the 190's roll rate.

This is when the 190 is on the defense and this is not because of the roll rates advantage, but because of reaction advantage. A defending jug can keep the 190 out of plane just the same - it is the pilot that is trying to follow that does not react fast enough, no matter if he is the 190 or the Jug. The 190 has better roll acceleration so a change in roll direction often creates a micro-warp that is more confusing to the attacker, that much is true.

[The Fugitive]

IDK, situation may have changed since I left, but there seemed to be relatively few 109's in the MA's only a bit more than a year ago.

I never would have called them rare, or anything; its not like could go to a decent sized fight and not see at LEAST one. But I never would have called them 'common' either, at least not overall.

It seems to me you're either just noticing them more because you're having problems with them, or you're flying at an altitude band thats a hot-spot for 109's.


Try flying higher. All aircraft tend to thin out with altidue, and anything 10K and higher significantly increases the odds that any 109 you'll bump into will be either a G-model packing gondies for buff hunting, or a K-4, in which case you're either screwed or are in for a fight.

Also, 190's become rather rare at high altidue since they cap out for speed at only 21K or so, and only crack 400mph which isn't stellar (the K4 can almost make 400mph at 5k for comparison). Go very high, and you'll start bumping into Ta-152's every now and then.

Well there's the problem with basing your answer on old information. Last month the 109's were responsible for better than 20% of all the kills. Also the game isn't played over 10-12k, except for buff hunting....what little there is. Today's player for the most part is looking for quick action. They don't climb very high and they come in HOin almost anything they can find. Todays game is a bit different "than you remember".

[Karnak]

Bozon,

If the P-47 still has 250mph on the dial after the Spit XVI blew its E to saddle up on it the Spit XVI did a very bad job of doing so.  It ought to have forced hard break out of the P-47M in the process.  That said, if the Spit XVI is 200 yards behind the P-47M and both are going 250mph the P-47M is highly unlikely to survive long enough to pull away unless it is dodging quite a bit and if it is dodging it is blowing E it needs to use in the pull away.  The Spit XVI's firepower is more than adequate to destroy a P-47 in that time.

[kilo2]

Well there's the problem with basing your answer on old information. Last month the 109's were responsible for better than 20% of all the kills. Also the game isn't played over 10-12k, except for buff hunting....what little there is. Today's player for the most part is looking for quick action. They don't climb very high and they come in HOin almost anything they can find. Todays game is a bit different "than you remember".

 

You never give up the same old line. 

[bozon]

Bozon,

If the P-47 still has 250mph on the dial after the Spit XVI blew its E to saddle up on it the Spit XVI did a very bad job of doing so.  It ought to have forced hard break out of the P-47M in the process.  That said, if the Spit XVI is 200 yards behind the P-47M and both are going 250mph the P-47M is highly unlikely to survive long enough to pull away unless it is dodging quite a bit and if it is dodging it is blowing E it needs to use in the pull away.  The Spit XVI's firepower is more than adequate to destroy a P-47 in that time.

The firepower it has, but can he hit? Speaking for myself, I often can't, but I am a terrible gunner especially for someone slightly above average in his K/D. Being on the receiving end, the guy behind me is often not a better gunner. The Spit or any other plane will OFTEN blow too much or too little E and give you that window of opportunity. Winning a dogfight is much more about exploiting the mistakes of the other guy than pulling some wonder sure-fire move that he can't counter. All you need is a plane good enough to exploit that mistake and I am saying that the M jug is more than adequate to do so. Adequate to the point where pilot skill and the specific situation are much more important than the on-paper specs of the planes involved.

I fly the Mossie as a pure fighter quite a lot. I'll be the last to say that it is some uber dogfighter, but players do not know how to approach it and make a lot of mistakes. The Moss VI is good enough to allow me to punish them for their mistakes and boy it is fun to do so, but I am sure you know that.

[Karnak]

Dunno.

Using the Mossie as an example, I have killed many a Runstang that couldn't get away despite being technically 11mph faster and much better accelerating past 340mph simply because he had to waste E dodging my fire (.303s do have a use) and I didn't have to waste that E.