Author Topic: Kills of P51s  (Read 4429 times)

Offline Nathan60

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Re: Kills of P51s
« Reply #105 on: December 04, 2012, 06:22:56 PM »
Look at it this way whats the point of beating up a track star that can box once you have him pinned to the ground? A slow pony is a  dead pony
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Offline coombz

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Re: Kills of P51s
« Reply #106 on: December 04, 2012, 06:26:14 PM »
Perhaps for some there is more dignity in accepting your defeat than trying anything to survive. More especially in a combat simulator where no one (egos aside) actually gets hurt. Fly how you wish in Aces High, and be defined by your actions.

Look, read, and inwardly digest these words of wisdom  :salute
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Offline Nathan60

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Re: Kills of P51s
« Reply #107 on: December 04, 2012, 06:32:51 PM »
I am saying where is the dignity in disparaging those that dont feel that way? I'm syaing this
turnfighting in a P51D is all nice and funny until you cross someone that knows half of his plane and kills you in 2 turns...turny planes crying and making homosexual assumptions about runners always made me giggle.
In a more pc manner
« Last Edit: December 04, 2012, 06:36:45 PM by Nathan60 »
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Offline coombz

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Re: Kills of P51s
« Reply #108 on: December 04, 2012, 06:39:22 PM »
I guess I just don't agree that nrshida was being disparaging

If his comments make you feel defensive that probably speaks more of insecurity on your part than anything else
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Offline Nathan60

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Re: Kills of P51s
« Reply #109 on: December 04, 2012, 06:40:57 PM »
I guess I just don't agree that nrshida was being disparaging

If his comments make you feel defensive that probably speaks more of insecurity on your part than anything else
Ok I should have clarified that my comments were not Shida specific. also I should clarify I do try to mix it up in ponys and dont often run, and I dont consider myself a runner, but I can understand why some would mix it up and disengage when they start losing, and for the elite that often profess that the figth is everything they should consider turning a figth around but not getting the kill as  a victory in its own right  and shouldn't need that extra kill in there stat column. I just feel that goading someone to fight a fight they cant win is not very honerable.


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« Last Edit: December 04, 2012, 06:45:26 PM by Nathan60 »
HamHawk
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Offline nrshida

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Re: Kills of P51s
« Reply #110 on: December 04, 2012, 06:42:07 PM »
Yes it does I ask why would someone want to continue the fight thier plane is not built for(a direct resaponse to the very first line of the quote from  shida), to the point that the figth becomes hopeless for them when they can simply disengage. and if it's truely about the fight you shouldnt feel the need to disparage someone that mixed it up with yuou but disengaged  when the fight went south.

Nathan, what happens to the P-51 versus the Ki-84 (for example), happens to the Ki-84 versus the Brewster, the Zero, the Hurricane, the F4F, most of the Spitfires and so on. The reason I stick around once my advantages are lost is because it is hard. It is hard to hang with those aircraft in a manoeuvring fight, and this is the activity I get the most satisfaction from. Not everyone plays to win (not that I play to lose). I realise this is a less than popular view. I am not trying to convince you to do likewise, I was merely participating in the discussion.

I do not always stick around to fight by the way, sometimes when I am completely out of ammunition I leave, and increasingly I leave if I see a ganging emerging simply because I don't think they've earned it. However if I'm mixing it with a couple of turny birds I am usually fighting so hard that escaping is the last thing on my mind. Do I fly smart? Really depends on your perspective doesn't it?







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Offline Nathan60

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Re: Kills of P51s
« Reply #111 on: December 04, 2012, 06:49:59 PM »
Look I'm not saying your wrong or that you are not fighting smart, I am saying that if someone mixes it up and decides to leave while they have a chance to survive I wont judge them negatively for it. Just as I dont judge you in your figthing style  I would expect the same courtesy. I stay in the fight myself but if someone bolts I am also fine with that I go find another fight. Also please see above I did not mean for my posts to be specific to you Shida. I'll often fl;y into a horde get as many low as I can then try to fly them into the ground. Why? Because its fun and I dont care about dieing.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2012, 06:55:33 PM by Nathan60 »
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CHUGGA-CHUGGA, CHOO-CHOO
Pigs go wing deep

Offline The Fugitive

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Re: Kills of P51s
« Reply #112 on: December 04, 2012, 06:56:47 PM »
Yes it does I ask why would someone want to continue the fight thier plane is not built for(a direct resaponse to the very first line of the quote from  shida), to the point that the figth becomes hopeless for them when they can simply disengage. and if it's truely about the fight you shouldnt feel the need to disparage someone that mixed it up with yuou but disengaged  when the fight went south.

My answer, to see if I can do it.

If i'm in a spit16 and your in a P47-25 I should win the fight in most cases because the spit hold most of the cards. If I'm in the P47 and your in the spit you should win for the same reason, but I'm not going to dive away or anything. I will pull every trick I can think of to see if I can shoot you down. That to me is what the game is about. If I want to just cruise around in a plane I can go fly X plane or something. I want the fight!

Offline nrshida

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Re: Kills of P51s
« Reply #113 on: December 04, 2012, 07:00:09 PM »
I am saying that if someone mixes it up and decides to leave while they have a chance to survive I wont judge them negatively for it.

I don't either.

It is a difficult level to achieve, to make a choice for yourself and then not judge others by your standards.
 

Also please see above I did not mean for my posts to be specific to you Shida.

Do not worry my friend, I did not think you did and besides I no longer take anything on this board personally or very seriously in any case.

Interesting discussion  :salute




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Offline Nathan60

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Re: Kills of P51s
« Reply #114 on: December 04, 2012, 07:07:22 PM »
It is a difficult level to achieve, to make a choice for yourself and then not judge others by your standards.
 Interesting discussion  :salute
Thing is hardly any of us know eachother so you only have to live to your standards and realise others live to theirs.  As I said before I do judge those that will ho from 1k out then go straight to the running differently, Those people bother me in the fact that they will never learn anything until they do atleast try. Its a gradual process learning this game, you cant expect people to go from hoing from 1 k out to gamely mixing it up when they don't know anything. They have to be able to mix it up disengage and think about what they could have done better. If they simply die it becomes frustration and chiding them on 200 doesn't help that process IMO. BUt like you said its only a discussion  :rock :salute
« Last Edit: December 04, 2012, 07:09:47 PM by Nathan60 »
HamHawk
Wing III-- Pigs on The Wing
FSO--JG54
CHUGGA-CHUGGA, CHOO-CHOO
Pigs go wing deep

Offline Ripley

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Re: Kills of P51s
« Reply #115 on: December 04, 2012, 08:44:06 PM »
What bothers me about threads like this is that the 51D only comes under scrutiny for running because it is the most widely used plane in the game, and because its fast.

So the argument going back and forth right now is pony pilots should die with honor if they engage, get low and slow, and lose advantage, right? And that a BNZ plane should be expected to try and turn with an agile TnB fighter.

lets not forget that 51 pilots are cowards if they egress out of a disadvantageous situation to regain a foothold on the fight and come back on better terms.

Make no mistake, I am not saying that everyone posting in here against the 51 are saying just this, but really a lot of you are whether you think you are or not.

People will play this game the way they want to play it, it is their money they can do whatever they want. If they dont care about dying because they have an infinite amount of virtual lives and they just want a good fight, then great. Power to you. Some people like to have a good fight AND get home alive because they consider that more 'prestigious' than dying in a fireball. Fantastic. Of course then there are those who only engage targets when 3 other people already have them occupied and who run like bats out of Hades when a plane can challenge them. Whatever, its your money.

why anyone would call a 51 diving away from a slow turn fight against a ki86, for example, a coward makes no sense to me. The 51 pilot is showing knowledge of the enemy aircraft (and in his own) in knowing that if he stays in that slow turn fight he will quickly find himself in a heap of trouble. If the roles were reversed and I was the one flying the Ki, I wouldn't be thinking "hey this guy is a do-or-die flyer", I would think the 51 pilot stupid for engaging me like that, and it would come off to me as him being an inexperienced pilot who didn't know his plane. And for those of you that are bragging about how many 51's you've killed that's probably what went through your head too, right? Either that or "ZOMG WEAKSAUCE 51 N00B COULDNT OUTRUN ME COULD YOU?"  :x

Im not, however, defending those 51 pilots that dont engage for anything and use the plane just simply for its speed and its 'run away' factor. But again, its your money so I have nothing ill to say either I suppose.

Bottom line, just because you dont care whether or not your plane makes it back to base doesnt mean your opponent doesn't either, believe it or not (see what i did there?). I myself get the most fun out of having a few good engagements and getting home, whether or not I had to disengage from a fight I was clearly losing, and whether my plane comes back without a scratch or bent almost beyond recognition, although I admit i have a little more fun limping a wounded bird back to base, little more satisfaction in making it home.  :aok

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Offline Karnak

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Re: Kills of P51s
« Reply #116 on: December 04, 2012, 09:11:12 PM »
Ripley,

P-51D drivers aren't being called cowards by most of us.  Just timid.

You can use the P-51D very successfully in an aggressive manner, but most are very timid and rely on just getting kills on AFKers and inattentive players without ever employing a proper BnZ.
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Offline uptown

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Re: Kills of P51s
« Reply #117 on: December 04, 2012, 09:23:38 PM »
Nathan, what happens to the P-51 versus the Ki-84 (for example), happens to the Ki-84 versus the Brewster, the Zero, the Hurricane, the F4F, most of the Spitfires and so on. The reason I stick around once my advantages are lost is because it is hard. It is hard to hang with those aircraft in a manoeuvring fight, and this is the activity I get the most satisfaction from. Not everyone plays to win (not that I play to lose). I realise this is a less than popular view. I am not trying to convince you to do likewise, I was merely participating in the discussion.

I do not always stick around to fight by the way, sometimes when I am completely out of ammunition I leave, and increasingly I leave if I see a ganging emerging simply because I don't think they've earned it. However if I'm mixing it with a couple of turny birds I am usually fighting so hard that escaping is the last thing on my mind. Do I fly smart? Really depends on your perspective doesn't it?


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Offline Ripley

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Re: Kills of P51s
« Reply #118 on: December 04, 2012, 11:04:51 PM »
Ripley,

P-51D drivers aren't being called cowards by most of us.  Just timid.

You can use the P-51D very successfully in an aggressive manner, but most are very timid and rely on just getting kills on AFKers and inattentive players without ever employing a proper BnZ.

"Timid" and "Coward" are one in the same, one just sounds nicer than the other. While (afaik) no one actually came out and called 51 pilots cowards, many posts in this thread feel more like the latter word to me than the former.

And yes, I agree that many dont employ proper BnZ and rely on special circumstances (ganging, vulching, afkers...) to get kills, but you will see that with people flying any plane in this game, you just hear about ponies doing it because they are popular, fast and will more often then not actually get away.
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Offline muzik

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Re: Kills of P51s
« Reply #119 on: December 04, 2012, 11:44:33 PM »
I dont :aok

putting your nose down and running to ack or friends is anything but fighting.......... and to call it "fighting"....well I thought you were smarter then that.

Well if putting your nose down and running is "not fighting" what is putting your nose up and climbing when you're flying a k4 or anything else that outclimbs its opponent?

I'm not directing this at you in particular.

Just because there is not the same separation, a k4 who can only use its climb to take the advantage is doing the exact same thing. It's just running a different direction. Only the k4, doesnt leave he uses that advantage. The pony has a harder task re-engaging if he can't get the alt advantage.

Bottom line is, each plane has strengths and weaknesses and if a pony driver will take the chance to engage in a turn fight until he doesnt have the energy to maintain the fight on at least an even keel, then he deserves every bit as much respect as any other type of flyer in the game. No one regardless of what they fly will ALWAYS fly their ride outside of it's envelope when they are guaranteed to lose if they do.

I gather you fly the Ki84, I bet you don't stay engaged in turn fights with an equal pilot flying zekes or brews. There's no way you could unless you run or die. So why should a pony continue to try and out turn a Ki84?
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