Author Topic: These Things  (Read 1949 times)

Offline tunnelrat

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1739
Re: These Things
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2012, 08:48:39 AM »
A canopy operation, for every plane in the game... correctly modeled... would take forEVER...

But, I will +1 the Ju-52 =)

In-Game: 80hd
The Spartans do not enquire how many the enemy are but where they are.

Offline Stellaris

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 402
Re: These Things
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2012, 09:51:00 AM »
+1 Ju52

Canopy - cool but not really necessary

Gunsights.  Lead computing gunsights, for those planes that had 'em would be wonderful.  There was also lead-computing manual ranging gunsights (you manually adjusted the ring size to match the wingspan, and the sight worked out the range).  That'd be cool, though perhaps tricky to use, and would require another pot axis to use properly.

Offline bustr

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 12436
Re: These Things
« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2012, 05:52:43 PM »
There was also lead-computing manual ranging gunsights (you manually adjusted the ring size to match the wingspan, and the sight worked out the range). 

I'm betting you followed the link in this post but, have yet to do more research into gyroscopic gunsights from that period:

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,341903.0.html


The K14 had a range adjustment adpater to the throttel lever while the british GGS had an adaptor to the rudder peddel that worked like a foot throttel. In both cases it changed the diameter of the 6-star ring to account for a known wingspan at a chosen range after you set the base footage knob on the front of the gunsight which just happened to corrolate to your guns harmonization point.

It didn't however change the relationship between the center fixed pipper of the 6-star to the down range harmonization distance and IP point your armeror set on the ground. (You do know when you set the convergence in the hanger you have effectively performed this function?)

Ranges at and inside of the harmonization distance had the best percentage chances of hitting a turning con opposed to shooting much past that distance. Within Low-E semi level manuvering the internal gyros would account for lead and bullet drop. As you introduced steeper angles of climb and decent along with increased E in turns, the K14 was usless and why it had a lock function to fix the 6-star centered in the reflector plate or shut it off and project a fixed 70Mil ring and cross which was done to fire rockets and drop bombs. In WW2 most air combat was straight line hit and run along with low E turns before a split-S escape. Aces High is the art of "Airshow Aerobatic Manuvering with Machineguns". This kind of rapid manuvering damaged the GGS\K14 along with the K14 could not accuratly keep up with the rapid change in directions and E\G forces. These also worked just as well to thwart the pilot's physical ability to bring his guns to bare when he was forced to lock the gyros in favor of a fixed reflex reticle and why it's called evasive action.

The Barr&Stroud MkII(*, S, L, III) had a fixed 100mph main ring. Depending on the period in the war it was first about 70Mil for all .303 then 100-105Mil when cannons became the main armament. The term 100mph ring was a jargonal term held over from when gunsight rings were external iron rings about 4 inches in diameter based on the distance a 100mph biplane traveled left to right in .254sec at a range of 200yds. The 70Mil then 100\105Mil rings represented the effecitve gun harmonization range versus combat speed of travel for the main gun of the time starting in 1938, first versus the Bf109E 1940, then the FW190A in 1941 with the introduction of cannons along with the change from a round reflector glass to square.

The range and split wingspan bar across the center of the 100mph ring allowed for you to set the known effective range of your harmonized guns and the wingspan of the type of con you were hunting. You can do this now by building your own MKII gunsight in 512x512 (1Mil=2pixel)then leave an opening the Mil width at distance of the con's wingspan you expect to shoot in the game. So for a FW190 at 300yds leave a 40Mil space in the bar or for 200yds a 60Mil space. Anything closer fills your main ring.

Here is the formula:



D= Distance to con in meters
S= Cons wingspan in centemeters(you can drop the /100 if you know the cons wingspan in meters)
Mil= number of mil

I hope Hitech is using "milliradians" through the gunsight and not "Artillery Mil".

An active GGS or K14 won't work due to Internet inconsistancies between hundreds of players in the same arena. Works in IL2 becasue of the low number of players in each room. Heck the offline lead computing sight dosen't always work as you expect it to and would probaly be the core of an active K14 function.

You can actualy calculate the vector ray paths and elevation compensation for momentum as an overlay to your gunsight. This would be the same as using a "Red Dot" Holoscope gunsight on your skeet gun with a ray trace overly to the red dot that you pull ahead of the skeet, line it along the appropriate ray and pull the trigger. Using the 100mph ring to determine hold over for low E lead shooting in the game works on the same principel. But, becasue you are shooting at another airplane while both of you are hurteling along at hundreds of mph, you have to account for the distances traveled in (.12 -.4) second as a component of your lead and elevation. On average flying level about 10-15Mil elevation of your gunsight but, as you get inside of 200yds you have to account for the effective bore line angle of your guns to your sight line. Oh and your convergence angle quickly forces you to rely on the gun(s) battery of one wing over the other as you close.

Now if you only fly in the AvA I can understand wanting an active K14 up to a point. Most players in there won't fly in a manner that will allow you to unlock the gyro's though. But, in the MA Hitech kindly places a range marker on your con so all you have to know is your momentum\drop compensation and lead at E for different highlighted distances.

I know, why go to all this trouble when a real Aimbot was used at the end of WW2. And Hitech the big meanie should let us buy powerups, fire and forget lockon bullets, insta transport dodges and robot ACM functions that can beat the top DA duelers in the game. It's only fair becasue otherwise this game is a pain in the kester to get realy good at anything fast. You actualy have to practice and do some "homework" to understand how to consistantly beat people.
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline hitech

  • Administrator
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 12425
      • http://www.hitechcreations.com
Re: These Things
« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2012, 11:09:51 AM »
1 mill = 1 unit at 1000 unit is what we use.

HiTech

Offline Guppy35

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 20386
Re: These Things
« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2012, 11:20:53 AM »
A canopy operation, for every plane in the game... correctly modeled... would take forEVER...

But, I will +1 the Ju-52 =)



I could swear that when I first tried AH way back when, you went from the tower, down the stairs to the plane, into it and the canopy closed.   This had to be back very early as there were very few playing at the time, but it caught me by surprise.

Not suggesting we need it, but just remembering or maybe delusional :)
Dan/CorkyJr
8th FS "Headhunters

Offline ink

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11274
Re: These Things
« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2012, 11:22:27 AM »
I could swear that when I first tried AH way back when, you went from the tower, down the stairs to the plane, into it and the canopy closed.   This had to be back very early as there were very few playing at the time, but it caught me by surprise.

Not suggesting we need it, but just remembering or maybe delusional :)

I tried a very early AH I remember it going like you said except I dont remember the canopy opening :headscratch:

Offline Stellaris

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 402
Re: These Things
« Reply #21 on: December 05, 2012, 03:20:23 PM »
I'm actually thinking of (I believe) the Mk V gunsight as installed in later war/postwar British aircraft.  We had one kicking around in the physics dept when I was in university.  Very cool.  The adjuster lever was on the throttle or joystick depending on the installation, at least so much as I understood it.

However your point about tumbling the gyros is well taken.  I'm just glad I don't have to cage my AH/TBI before entering combat.

Offline hitech

  • Administrator
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 12425
      • http://www.hitechcreations.com
Re: These Things
« Reply #22 on: December 05, 2012, 03:26:40 PM »
I could swear that when I first tried AH way back when, you went from the tower, down the stairs to the plane, into it and the canopy closed.   This had to be back very early as there were very few playing at the time, but it caught me by surprise.

Not suggesting we need it, but just remembering or maybe delusional :)

You are correct, except there was no canopy movement.

HiTech

Offline Ack-Ack

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 25260
      • FlameWarriors
Re: These Things
« Reply #23 on: December 05, 2012, 03:50:36 PM »
I could swear that when I first tried AH way back when, you went from the tower, down the stairs to the plane, into it and the canopy closed.   This had to be back very early as there were very few playing at the time, but it caught me by surprise.


I actually thought it was annoying as the walking speed was about par with an old lady with a walker and I'd just speed up the time so it would be instantaneous from tower to plane.  Don't remember when it was removed though.

ack-ack
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
Elite Top Aces +1 Mexican Official Squadron Song

Offline bustr

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 12436
Re: These Things
« Reply #24 on: December 05, 2012, 04:55:55 PM »
1 mill = 1 unit at 1000 unit is what we use.

HiTech

Would your unit per chance corrispond to the following?

12" @ 1000' ??
36" @ 1000yd

or

11.8" @ 1000"

I've assumed 12 @ 1000 since you corrected the gunsights.
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline ink

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11274
Re: These Things
« Reply #25 on: December 05, 2012, 07:24:55 PM »
You are correct, except there was no canopy movement.

HiTech


see I am right sometimes :lol

Offline bustr

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 12436
Re: These Things
« Reply #26 on: December 05, 2012, 08:16:24 PM »
Would your unit per chance corrispond to the following?

12" @ 1000' ??
36" @ 1000yd

or

11.8" @ 1000"

I've assumed 12 @ 1000 since you corrected the gunsights.

Ooopsy....11.8" @ 1000'
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline spitter123

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 90
Re: These Things
« Reply #27 on: December 05, 2012, 11:10:12 PM »
Maybe.... Forget about everything except the Ju-52

Offline Motherland

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8110
Re: These Things
« Reply #28 on: December 06, 2012, 12:01:03 AM »
It would be nice if all of the planes had bitmaps for the internal cockpit glass like the RV8 does, or the late 109 head armor, so that it felt like you were actually in a cockpit and shadows were projected on them.

Offline Hazard69

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 748
Re: These Things
« Reply #29 on: December 06, 2012, 07:27:15 AM »
I actually thought it was annoying as the walking speed was about par with an old lady with a walker and I'd just speed up the time so it would be instantaneous from tower to plane.  Don't remember when it was removed though.

ack-ack

I believe the GUI section back then had an option to adjust the time it took. I remember running at warp speeds.  I miss it, it was fun. Made it seem like you were walking out to your ride.  :cool:

Actually checked the current GUI section to see if we still had an option for it.  :lol

And yeah we never had an option of open canopies. Warbirds used to, where below a certain speed, you could pop your head out (landing view?). Unfortunately though it was never incorporated on my poor P38. Guess the regulations to not open the windows to prevent vortex induced vibrations were carried over to the game world.   :aok
« Last Edit: December 06, 2012, 07:29:55 AM by Hazard69 »
<S> Hazardus

The loveliest thing of which one could sing, this side of the Heavenly Gates,
Is no blonde or brunette from a Hollywood set, but an escort of P38s.