Author Topic: Do P51s breed sucky pilots??  (Read 5378 times)

Offline ToeTag

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Re: Do P51s breed sucky pilots??
« Reply #105 on: December 13, 2012, 12:16:02 AM »
This is not a whine thread to start with, but I was wondering tonight why is there not a dedicated core of good P51 sticks? Its the most popular plane in the game hands down but I cannot honestly remember the last time I was impressed with a P51 that I ran into in the MA, the 2 I do remember Sunbat and Grmrpr that was years ago.

Could it be that one of its most used strengths 'running away real fast' is the reason no one consistently pushes this plane and therefore why they 'P51 pilots' continue to suck in it? I have flown it before and I think its got a lot of great attributes, maybe only lacking in the thrust department, so why do you all fly around like really bad AI in a really good plane??



No it just breeds sucky posts
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Offline BaldEagl

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Re: Do P51s breed sucky pilots??
« Reply #106 on: December 13, 2012, 12:23:29 AM »
If you are talking about priority, I would tent to agree. Higher, faster, farther, seem to have been the first three priorities, with toughness as a fourth, and ordinance capability fith.  Maneuverability seems to be no higher than sixth priority.  that's not to say some planes didn't end up with good or even high maneuverability, it means that when they started out in design, and trade offs arose, maneuverability was sacrificed in favor of th eother attributes, to a point. There were probably minimum requirements in each catagory. But the target for the categories was set higher in the Altitude, Speed, Range, toughness, weapons, categories. I think all you are saying is no contract bid ever went out, that specified the "turn rate" or other maneuverability categories as "Best".  I do believe that did change with the F-15, where maneuverability (lots of ways to define that) wsa to be "Best in class"

But I would love to hear if another plane was targetted as such.  Perhaps the F8F?  or F-86?  :salute

That's largely true of all the USAAF P series aircraft as, for the most part, they had to travel long distances in bomber escort roles deep over enemy territory.

The Navy had much different requirements.  Their primary opponent was the Japanese Zero, not the faster sleeker 109's and 190's on the Western front.  Their range and altitude requirements were completely different.

As evidence of this you need look no further than the extensive use of sleek, aerodynamic in-line engines in the P series vs radials in the F series with the Jug being the big exception to that rule.

As the war progressed all countries transitioned from manouverability toward speed.  The German 109 series is a prime example of this.  The USN was no exception moving from the early F4F's to the F4U's but their greatest success came with the F6F, hardly a speed burner in comparison to it's US peers at the time.

For the USN I'd say toughness was the primary attribute.  Range wasn't initially important as they weren't resticted to land based operations.  Ord wasn't initially important as most of their bomber force was carrier based attack type aircraft although that and speed became more important through the course of the war.  Because of the dive bombing of ships vs heavy bomber escort alt wasn't important and when it became important P-51's and P-47's were brought in to fill that role.  That leaves the ability to get off of and onto a carrier deck, the ability to engage the Japanese and the ability to absorbe damage and get home.

It's interesting because the US was involved in two completely different wars with completely different requirements and when you're generalizing about US aircraft design at the time I think it's an important distinction, one that Riply failed to make when I first countered his generalization and one that you've also failed to make.

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Offline Saxman

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Re: Do P51s breed sucky pilots??
« Reply #107 on: December 13, 2012, 07:26:56 AM »
Quote
Range wasn't initially important as they weren't resticted to land based operations.

Wait, what?

You're launching from an aircraft carrier, a tiny little speck in the middle of the ocean, and looking for ANOTHER aircraft carrier, a tiny little speck in the middle of the ocean. Carriers move, so by the time you've spotted her and your strike is in the air, at BEST you have a ballpark guess of where she is, which means you have to find her again. Considering flight times, that's QUITE a bit of ocean she might have moved into. Oh, not to mention the closer you have to get to launch your strike, the greater the chance an enemy scout will find you, as well.

Range was a HUGE consideration for naval aircraft. One of the reasons the F4F-4 was less popular than the -3 was because they removed some of its fuel capacity to add the wing folding mechanisms, and a large number of aircraft were lost when they simply ran out of gas. Especially when the commander took a chance of launching an extreme-range strike.
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Offline katanaso

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Re: Do P51s breed sucky pilots??
« Reply #108 on: December 13, 2012, 08:22:50 AM »
I honestly never would have believed it had I not seen it with my own eyes, thats just fantastic. For the record, were you adjusting trim for that fight?

Most likely, yes.  I fight with Manual Trim, and adjust as necessary.  I'll sometimes quickly click Combat Trim on then off to re-trim the plane at a certain speed, but I have Elevator Trim and Aileron Trim mapped to a 4-way hat on my stick.

I find that if I forget to turn off Combat Trim when I'm starting to turnfight somebody, no matter what plane I'm in, I'll end up going into a spin when trying to jostle for position, cut a corner, or whatnot.  Without fail, I can hit the Combat Trim button and get the message, "Combat Trim Off" ...

That's just me though.  Lots of guys can move their planes really well with Combat Trim turned on.

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Offline Ripley

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Re: Do P51s breed sucky pilots??
« Reply #109 on: December 13, 2012, 08:33:30 AM »
That's largely true of all the USAAF P series aircraft as, for the most part, they had to travel long distances in bomber escort roles deep over enemy territory.

The Navy had much different requirements.  Their primary opponent was the Japanese Zero, not the faster sleeker 109's and 190's on the Western front.  Their range and altitude requirements were completely different.

As evidence of this you need look no further than the extensive use of sleek, aerodynamic in-line engines in the P series vs radials in the F series with the Jug being the big exception to that rule.

As the war progressed all countries transitioned from manouverability toward speed.  The German 109 series is a prime example of this.  The USN was no exception moving from the early F4F's to the F4U's but their greatest success came with the F6F, hardly a speed burner in comparison to it's US peers at the time.

For the USN I'd say toughness was the primary attribute.  Range wasn't initially important as they weren't resticted to land based operations.  Ord wasn't initially important as most of their bomber force was carrier based attack type aircraft although that and speed became more important through the course of the war.  Because of the dive bombing of ships vs heavy bomber escort alt wasn't important and when it became important P-51's and P-47's were brought in to fill that role.  That leaves the ability to get off of and onto a carrier deck, the ability to engage the Japanese and the ability to absorbe damage and get home.

It's interesting because the US was involved in two completely different wars with completely different requirements and when you're generalizing about US aircraft design at the time I think it's an important distinction, one that Riply failed to make when I first countered his generalization and one that you've also failed to make.



But according to your rebuttal my generalization is still correct. Yes, the navy had a problem fighting the zeroes because they outclassed the f4f's. They were slower, no where near as maneuverable, but they were, as you said, very tough.

 As Saxman said, range was extremely important as the ocean is vast, and the Zero outclassed the f4f in that category as well. As a matter of fact, the Zero was ahead of its time as far as range is concerned, as they could fly escort missions for longer distances than any other plane of the war until the 51D made an appearance, their longest escort mission being from Rabaul to Guadalcanal, which was a longer mission than the P51D ever did escorting bombers from Britain to Germany. I guess my point about that is range was extremely important, even more so than in the European theatre.

The P38 Was highly effective against the Japanese, credited for shooting down over 1800 Japanese aircraft, but not because it could turn with them, because it couldn't, but because it was faster, tougher, and it outgunned them.

Then comes the F6F. In the Japanese's first engagements with the F6F, they mistook the plane for the F4F, which was usually a lethal mistake for the pilot making that error because the F6F had WAY more Horsepower than the F4F, and because of that they were faster and accelerated much better. While the F4F lacked speed over the Zero, the F6F greatly exceeded the Zero's top speed. However, when it came to a turn fight, the Zero still had the advantage, and any pilot attempting to turn circles with a Zero found that the Zero would eventually find his way to their 6.

While the F6F may have been a very maneuverable plane, it was not BUILT to be the most maneuverable plane in the pacific, it was built to be the FASTEST and TOUGHEST. So I am sorry, you say I was generalizing about American aircraft engineering, and I was, but I respectfully disagree with your post.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2012, 09:28:13 AM by Ripley »
Ripley

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Offline Ripley

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Re: Do P51s breed sucky pilots??
« Reply #110 on: December 13, 2012, 08:35:38 AM »
Most likely, yes.  I fight with Manual Trim, and adjust as necessary.  I'll sometimes quickly click Combat Trim on then off to re-trim the plane at a certain speed, but I have Elevator Trim and Aileron Trim mapped to a 4-way hat on my stick.

I find that if I forget to turn off Combat Trim when I'm starting to turnfight somebody, no matter what plane I'm in, I'll end up going into a spin when trying to jostle for position, cut a corner, or whatnot.  Without fail, I can hit the Combat Trim button and get the message, "Combat Trim Off" ...

That's just me though.  Lots of guys can move their planes really well with Combat Trim turned on.



Mother of god... THE HAT.

Ive been wondering what to use it for since I have a trackIR and don't need it. I cant believe I never thought of mapping TRIM to it.

watch out MA, I'm about to get even more aggressive trying to teach myself how to use trim properly ;)
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Offline katanaso

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Re: Do P51s breed sucky pilots??
« Reply #111 on: December 13, 2012, 09:09:46 AM »
lol

I use the 8-way hat for my views, so it's the 4-way hat for the trim.  At one point, I had rudder trim enabled as well, but I hardly used it.  My primary trimming is elevator trim.
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Offline Saxman

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Re: Do P51s breed sucky pilots??
« Reply #112 on: December 13, 2012, 09:47:13 AM »
Wow, no rudder trim? Rudder is probably the most important thing to get trimmed properly since yaw will really mess with your aim.
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline katanaso

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Re: Do P51s breed sucky pilots??
« Reply #113 on: December 13, 2012, 09:55:12 AM »
Wow, no rudder trim? Rudder is probably the most important thing to get trimmed properly since yaw will really mess with your aim.

I hear you, but, I find that I'm more comfortable using my feet for small adjustments.
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Offline TequilaChaser

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Re: Do P51s breed sucky pilots??
« Reply #114 on: December 13, 2012, 10:21:34 AM »
NO, P51s do not breed sucky pilots(players) ....... the hordes and Lil Generals are to blame for sucky pilots ( players )

to qualify my statement, I point you towards WldThing, the 412th Bronco Mustangs squad ( Midnight, dtango, SkateSr, etc... ), Damned Fool & Damned Dano, Stang, Flyboy and several others who could throw their cartoon P51 planes around quiet well.......



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Offline Oldman731

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Re: Do P51s breed sucky pilots??
« Reply #115 on: December 13, 2012, 10:59:27 AM »
While the F6F may have been a very maneuverable plane, it was not BUILT to be the most maneuverable plane in the pacific, it was built to be the FASTEST and TOUGHEST. So I am sorry, you say I was generalizing about American aircraft engineering, and I was, but I respectfully disagree with your post.


But it was designed to be maneuverable.  As I understood your original point, you believed that no American aircraft was deliberately designed with maneuverability in mind.

- oldman

Offline Scca

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Re: Do P51s breed sucky pilots??
« Reply #116 on: December 13, 2012, 11:10:59 AM »
I wouldn't call 51 pilots sucky, I call them "one trick ponies".  They are the one pass haul *** poster children.  If they stay in their precious ponies, then things are ok.  If eny kicks them out, the log...  To get them to fly a spit is impossible.  They don't know how to fly them, and will lose quickly because they don't have any fighting skills.  They are always on the offensive, so they don't learn defensive moves. 

I could name others, but wouldn't like the back lash. 



Steve was always a good P-51 stick, at least from my memory. Haven't seen him around in awhile though.
I disagree.  If (and that's a big IF) I could catch Steve, I sent him to the tower every time.  Normally I would see him, then he would extend post haste to the ack, or friendly's.  He was a challenge to catch, but once caught, it was noob easy. 

Steve's claim to fame was picking and BNZ'ing.  He got me far more than I got him, but he was a pro at the 450mph snap shot and zoom back to his perch.  He played the "I have to live" game well.  It's not my game, but it made him happy.  Of course he isn't around anymore, so that may speak to how exciting it is to fly like that. 

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Offline Traveler

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Re: Do P51s breed sucky pilots??
« Reply #117 on: December 13, 2012, 11:16:25 AM »
The game puts all new pilots into the P51D to start.   Any time you run into a P51, chances are, the guy is in the game for the first time.  I was sucky the first time in a P51.
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Offline Ripley

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Re: Do P51s breed sucky pilots??
« Reply #118 on: December 13, 2012, 11:49:00 AM »

But it was designed to be maneuverable.  As I understood your original point, you believed that no American aircraft was deliberately designed with maneuverability in mind.

- oldman

I did have a post here, but at risk of overstepping my general knowledge of avionics I will leave it at the fact that we just seem to have a different view on the F6F.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2012, 11:50:47 AM by Ripley »
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Offline MrRiplEy[H]

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Re: Do P51s breed sucky pilots??
« Reply #119 on: December 13, 2012, 11:52:18 AM »

But it was designed to be maneuverable.  As I understood your original point, you believed that no American aircraft was deliberately designed with maneuverability in mind.

- oldman

The brewster was extremely manouverable - at least untill the Navy attached 50% more weight to it.
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