Author Topic: Scissors  (Read 963 times)

Offline DEECONX

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Scissors
« on: December 12, 2012, 04:58:02 PM »
So there I still a lot of things in the skies that elude me on how to successfully pull off, and one in particular is the scissoring attacks between two aircraft. I somehow always end up being way to fast and end up on the front, no matter what I do. Any and all help appreciated here.  :salute

Offline j500ss

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Re: Scissors
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2012, 05:31:48 PM »
I am for sure no trainer, heck I don't even really consider myself a very good stick.   However I do know that training or working with someone on a scissors is no easy task.   It's a timing thing, and getting it right for practice is not easy to do.   In a actual fight, at least for me, it just kind of happens.  It's a act/ react thing.

If you find someone who has a secret to training it, let me know..... I can use all the help I can get as well   :aok


Good luck   :salute

J

Offline titanic3

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Re: Scissors
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2012, 05:33:46 PM »
If you find yourself going too fast for a scissors, and you're both in the same/similar plane, don't try to slow down, you already lost the scissors. Instead, pull up and take the fight vertical. If you overshot, you KNOW you have a speed advantage. Use it.  ;) Might not work too well if you're in a worse performing plane though.

  the game is concentrated on combat, not on shaking the screen.

semp

Offline Big Rat

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Re: Scissors
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2012, 07:16:22 PM »
DEECONX

I see you're with JG11, hit Morf up, I'm sure he can help you out with both flat and rolling scissors.  One of the big Keys is setting up for the next break quickly, don't wait for your opponent to make his next break (break into him before he has the chance to break back into you) this is where you start to gain advantage.

 :salute
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Offline Scotch

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Re: Scissors
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2012, 07:46:24 PM »
One of the big Keys is setting up for the next break quickly, don't wait for your opponent to make his next break (break into him before he has the chance to break back into you) this is where you start to gain advantage.

 :aok
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Offline BaldEagl

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Re: Scissors
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2012, 11:29:52 PM »
This one's easy.  Slow down.  Thank you, glad to be of service.

Seriusly though you didn't say whether it's a flat or rolling scissor.

A flat scissor is primarily a defensive manouver meant to force an aggressive attacker into an overshoot thereby allowing the defender the opportunity to reverse roles.  If you have time and recognize it soon enough you can simply slow down.  It's entertaining watching the other guy squirm in front of you when he realizes you didn't bite.

If you're too fast as previously mentioned you can simply take the fight vertical, often into a rolling scissor.

The point in a rolling scissor is to allow you to remain behind the opponent while initially retaining E.  You do this by arcing around the opponent in a helix thereby extending your flight path while retianing speed.  This often denigrates into both of you in slow arcing helixes trying to gain advantage over one another.  If your losing (i.e being forced to the front) you have to open the helix or slow down.  There's a point where you can no longer open the helix or you'll allow the enemy to take your six.  Slowing down in this case generally means utilizing flaps.

Go spend some time with a trainer to learn the fine points.  Slow rolling scissor fights are among the most fun IMO.
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Offline ToeTag

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Re: Scissors
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2012, 11:56:51 PM »
episode of south park comes to mind............ :devil
They call it "common sense", then why is it so uncommon?

Offline DEECONX

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Re: Scissors
« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2012, 12:40:00 PM »
Thanks for all the help guys.  :aok

Offline Debrody

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Re: Scissors
« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2012, 02:00:05 PM »
Beethoven was a helluva composer  ;)
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Offline JOACH1M

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Re: Scissors
« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2012, 02:22:05 PM »
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Offline JunkyII

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Re: Scissors
« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2012, 02:25:38 PM »
Go for the collision!!!
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Offline Motherland

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Re: Scissors
« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2012, 03:00:29 PM »
If you're in a 109, the rudder is extremely effective and can pretty much serve as a speed brake if you really need to dump E fast.
Learning how to do rolling scissors is really a good idea though, since they're effective in the first place and even more so because many people can't do them well.

Offline Badboy

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Re: Scissors
« Reply #12 on: December 26, 2012, 07:38:43 AM »
So there I still a lot of things in the skies that elude me on how to successfully pull off, and one in particular is the scissoring attacks between two aircraft. I somehow always end up being way to fast and end up on the front, no matter what I do. Any and all help appreciated here.  :salute

Hi DEECONX

Let me see if I can help...

The most common situation resulting in a scissors is when one pilot attempts an attack, but due to excessive speed the attacker can not bring his guns to bear and passes behind the target. When the attacker passes behind the target that situation is known as a flight path overshoot. That is the signal the defender is looking for in order to initiate the scissors maneuver. However at this point a scissors maneuver is far from certain because the attacker has a choice to make and he could:

  • Recognise that he is way too fast, and zoom away to set up for another attack.
  • Recognise that he is a tad too fast and pull out of plane intending to Yo-Yo back onto your six.
  • Recognise that he is slow enough to continue the turn and pull inside for the shot.


You don't mention if you are the attacker or the defender in this scenario, but it may be that if you are the attacker you could be choosing the third option when the first or second would be more appropriate. As the attacker you can't initiate a scissors, you can only choose to continue your turn towards the bandit, then the defender has a decision to make. As the defender you have the choice to initiate the scissors or not and I have illustrated that situation in the diagram below.     



From the defender's perspective, the following options are available:

  • You recognise the attacker's flight path overshoot and use the rule of opposites to extend as the attacker zooms away.
  • you recognise the attacker's flight path overshoot but choose a rate war and thus continue your turn into a two circle fight
  • you recognise the attacker's flight path overshoot and reverse your turn back into the bandit, thus initiating a scissors.

The question is which option is the most appropriate and the factors that enable you to make the correct decision are shown in the diagram above, they are:

  • Attacker's Angle Off at the overshoot
  • Attacker's Speed at the overshoot
  • Attacker's Range at the overshoot

Naturally, you don't know those thing precisely, and the important thing here is that it doesn't really matter how fast the attacker is, it is the relative speed that is important, you should be thinking in terms of how much faster than you in terms of "much faster" a "little faster" and so on. Your judgement will have been informed by prior events, for example did the attacker dive in from above, was he only slightly higher than you or much higher and so on. Simarly with the angle off and range, the closer the range and greater the angle off the more likely a scissors will be successful.

Eventually, with practice, you won't even make the choice consciously. It is similar to what happens when someone throws you a ball, you aren't thinking about the actual velocity of the ball, you just have a sense of if it is fast or slow and you aren't thinking about the dynamics of the trajectory, you just know where your hand needs to be to intercept its flight path, you see and recognise everything in an instant and just do it. The same thing happens with the scissors, the moment you see the factors above, you recognise that due to the attackers speed, range and angle off, you will be able to intercept his flight path as shown in the diagram below.



The catch is that you will both be making similar decisions and unlike catching a ball, both pilots will be working to improve their chances and change the situation in their favor as it develops. Both pilots will be adjusting their flight path, puling G, employing flaps, working the throttle and continuously assessing the results.

The successful outcome for the defender shown in the diagram above is therefore only likely when both attacker and defender believe they can succeed and both press the scissors to its conclusion. The most common variation on this theme is for one of the pilots to recognise they are losing the scissors and for that pilot to attempt to slow his forward motion even more by pulling out of plane, thus converting the scissors into a rolling scissors. An explanation of the rolling scissors can be found here:

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,184939.0.html

If you continue to:

Quote
I somehow always end up being way to fast and end up on the front,

Then see if you can isolate at what point in the process things are going wrong. I often find that failure in the scissors has less to do with flying ability, and is often the result of one or more marginal decisions that lead to a bad position that even great flying won't get you out of. See if you can pinpoint where in the process things are going wrong for you and come back with a more specific question... or if you can't figure out where things are going wrong, post a film.

Hope that helps...

Badboy

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Offline JMD413

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Re: Scissors
« Reply #13 on: December 26, 2012, 09:27:13 AM »
Great info here.  Thanks!
Venom

Offline deadstikmac

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Re: Scissors
« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2012, 11:09:56 PM »