Author Topic: Tested HE  (Read 1363 times)

Offline Chalenge

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Tested HE
« on: December 24, 2012, 02:55:21 AM »
I asked a couple of squaddies to help me with testing the HE rounds in the TA. What we found is what I expected.

The Tiger tanks have the strongest HE of course. The Firefly though has the same HE as the M4A3-75 which should not be. Even if you accept that the Firefly ammunition eventually had capable HE during the war (I do not) it should not match the M4A3 ammo (HE-APC). Also the HE-APC and AP-APC ammunition should both be much more similar in trajectory unless of course the round is AP-solid which we should not since the APC ammunition is more common in American and Britsh tanks (even the Churchill used APC). The HE ammunition in this case was 1.5 lbs of explosive compound and four ounces of fuse cap and fuse.

The fuse of the HE ammunition could be set in two ways. It would either go off on impact (right-away fusing) or delay in which case it could be varied. If variable fusing is granted I wish we could set it before launch and not while in the field.

During the breakout at Normandy the 75mm gun was found to be inadequate for the job against Panthers and Tigers. So they upsized the guns to 76mm and the 17lber for the Firefly (this is the short history version). They quickly discovered that the HE in those tanks was inferior to the M4A3 75mm HE-APC and so they stopped loading the HE rounds in the British tanks. Even though the Americans still had HE they would often prefer to load 100% AP since they knew the HE would do nothing for them. So in effect the British and American both only used HE in the M4A3 75mm and this is why the 75mm remained on the battlefield.

So this is a multi-faceted wish.
1) No HE in the Firefly
2) No HE in the M4A3-76
3) gunsite and trajectory correction of M4A3-75
4) Cruiser Tank Mk III Challenger
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Offline phatzo

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Re: Tested HE
« Reply #1 on: December 24, 2012, 03:53:50 AM »
You know you're going to have to repeatedly explain this in detail to someone.   :banana:
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Offline Chalenge

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Re: Tested HE
« Reply #2 on: December 24, 2012, 04:15:40 AM »
Let's hope not.
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Offline Karnak

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Re: Tested HE
« Reply #3 on: December 24, 2012, 09:37:42 AM »
Seems pretty clear to me, but an odd request from somebody who defended, IIRC, fantasy loadouts for the P-51D.
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Offline SmokinLoon

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Re: Tested HE
« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2012, 10:55:28 AM »
I asked a couple of squaddies to help me with testing the HE rounds in the TA. What we found is what I expected.

The Tiger tanks have the strongest HE of course. The Firefly though has the same HE as the M4A3-75 which should not be. Even if you accept that the Firefly ammunition eventually had capable HE during the war (I do not) it should not match the M4A3 ammo (HE-APC). Also the HE-APC and AP-APC ammunition should both be much more similar in trajectory unless of course the round is AP-solid which we should not since the APC ammunition is more common in American and Britsh tanks (even the Churchill used APC). The HE ammunition in this case was 1.5 lbs of explosive compound and four ounces of fuse cap and fuse.

The fuse of the HE ammunition could be set in two ways. It would either go off on impact (right-away fusing) or delay in which case it could be varied. If variable fusing is granted I wish we could set it before launch and not while in the field.

During the breakout at Normandy the 75mm gun was found to be inadequate for the job against Panthers and Tigers. So they upsized the guns to 76mm and the 17lber for the Firefly (this is the short history version). They quickly discovered that the HE in those tanks was inferior to the M4A3 75mm HE-APC and so they stopped loading the HE rounds in the British tanks. Even though the Americans still had HE they would often prefer to load 100% AP since they knew the HE would do nothing for them. So in effect the British and American both only used HE in the M4A3 75mm and this is why the 75mm remained on the battlefield.

So this is a multi-faceted wish.
1) No HE in the Firefly
2) No HE in the M4A3-76
3) gunsite and trajectory correction of M4A3-75
4) Cruiser Tank Mk III Challenger


WRONG!  I'm glad I get to beat Looshy in telling you so, too.   :rofl

The Tiger II, Tiger, and T34/85mm all have the same HE damage: 234 lbs
Next in line is the US M4A3/75mm at 178 lbs.
Then a whole list of vehicles that deliver 156 lbs: Panther, Pzr IV's, LVT-4 (although it fires the SAME shell as the M4/75mm  :headscratch: ), and T34/76.
Next in line is the British Firefly with 140lbs of damage.
Last in line for tank HE are the M4A3/76 and M18 at 103 lbs of damage.

Take a look at the scaling.  It either takes 2, 3, or 4 shots to destroy a typical OBJ in AH (building, ord bunker, radar tower, etc).  HTC has given the M4/75 a nod (and rightfully so) and upped its damage to make it worth more to hit hangers, etc, but on the scale it is still a 2 hit/OBJ to destroy.  On a different note, the M4/75mm armed with the Calliope will far surpass what the Tiger offers in terms of HE destruction capability, and it can do it much faster thanks to an almost twice as fast reload.

I will agree that the Firefly could possibly have a reduced HE ammo load out.  It was a designated tank destroyer, and unless there was an enemy tank to content with the Shermans and Cromwells and their superior 75mm HE did all the infantry support work.  The M4A3/76mm is a different story though, it was ultimately designed to replace the M4A3/75mm, but by the time it arrived the upped 76mm gun was not as badly needed yet it served on. It did have a weaker HE round without a doubt.  However, it still performed a direct support role right alongside the M4/75mm and the infantry. I say leave it alone.  

I was not aware of an sun sight inaccuracy in the M4/75mm.  I guess I will pay more attention next time.  

Oh, and if you want to test weapons, etc, vs OBJ then may I suggest going offline. Using the TA to measure anything is a bit of a stretch because the damage model and hardness settings are not in line with the MA.

I have a couple of spreadsheets showing weapons damage and tank data I've offered up to people in a different thread. Anyone who wants them is more than welcome to PM me their email and I will gladly send them.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2012, 11:15:32 AM by SmokinLoon »
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Tested HE
« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2012, 02:24:43 PM »


So this is a multi-faceted wish.
1) No HE in the Firefly
2) No HE in the M4A3-76
3) gunsite and trajectory correction of M4A3-75
4) Cruiser Tank Mk III Challenger


#1 would be historically incorrect as Fireflies were provided with HE rounds (17pdr Mk I and Mk II HE rounds).  I posted this in the "New HE round" thread.

This is an excerpt from the report, Middle East AFV Technical Liaison Letter 25, 16 December 1944 outlined the experience of the 2nd Canadian Armoured Regiment in Italy.
Quote
On 14 Oct the 17 pdr tks saw their first action when this squadron provided close support for an infantry battalion (Hastings and Prince Edward Regiment) in an advance beyond SCOLO RIGOSSA. In the first afternoon this force gained approximately 1500 yds against stubborn resistance. Although the 17 pdr tanks were kept rearmost in their troops, they were called upon to shoot up many houses and dug-outs, and the HE shell was found to be about the same as the 75mm. In the opinion of one troop sergeant it "seems to knock out the back wall of the house"

Instead of wishing to remove the HE round from the Firefly, a better wish would be to accurately model the HE rounds that were used by the Firefly.

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Offline Chalenge

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Re: Tested HE
« Reply #6 on: December 24, 2012, 02:26:17 PM »
WRONG!  I'm glad I get to beat Looshy in telling you so, too.   :rofl

The Tiger II, Tiger, and T34/85mm all have the same HE damage: 234 lbs

Interesting that you say "WRONG!" and then agree with everything.
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Offline Chalenge

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Re: Tested HE
« Reply #7 on: December 24, 2012, 02:30:54 PM »
#1 would be historically incorrect as Fireflies were provided with HE rounds (17pdr Mk I and Mk II HE rounds).  I posted this in the "New HE round" thread.

This is an excerpt from the report, Middle East AFV Technical Liaison Letter 25, 16 December 1944 outlined the experience of the 2nd Canadian Armoured Regiment in Italy.
Instead of wishing to remove the HE round from the Firefly, a better wish would be to accurately model the HE rounds that were used by the Firefly.

ack-ack

Provided and then not used. Lie Loon points out the M4A3-75 was leaned on fairly heavily for their HE while the other tanks kept their stocks of AP rather than the useless HE. If the HE is going to be loaded then it certainly needs to be corrected for blast radius.
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Offline Karnak

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Re: Tested HE
« Reply #8 on: December 24, 2012, 03:31:10 PM »
Provided and then not used. Lie Loon points out the M4A3-75 was leaned on fairly heavily for their HE while the other tanks kept their stocks of AP rather than the useless HE. If the HE is going to be loaded then it certainly needs to be corrected for blast radius.
Much like P-51Ds didn't carry two 1000lb bombs and six 5" HVAR rockets at the same time in WWII?  Why so picky about the Firefly and so lenient with the P-51D?

(They should both be limited to loads that were used historically, in my opinion.)
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Offline Tank-Ace

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Re: Tested HE
« Reply #9 on: December 24, 2012, 03:53:49 PM »
HTC really needs to take a difinitive stance on the whole availability vs use thing. Only way we can treat such cases fairly.
You started this thread and it was obviously about your want and desire in spite of your use of 'we' and Google.

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Offline Chalenge

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Re: Tested HE
« Reply #10 on: December 24, 2012, 04:33:53 PM »
Much like P-51Ds didn't carry two 1000lb bombs and six 5" HVAR rockets at the same time in WWII?  Why so picky about the Firefly and so lenient with the P-51D?

(They should both be limited to loads that were used historically, in my opinion.)

Apparently you slept through the posted images of P-51Ds that actually DID use two 1000lb bombs and six 5" rockets.  :rolleyes:

EDIT: Before further hijacking is attempted:

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,339900.msg4484120.html#msg4484120
« Last Edit: December 24, 2012, 04:37:14 PM by Chalenge »
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Offline Karnak

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Re: Tested HE
« Reply #11 on: December 24, 2012, 05:21:44 PM »
And there were apparently Fireflies that used HE rounds.  Just in insignificant numbers compared with the AP only Fireflies.  Just like the P-51Ds.

In AH you never see a P-51D lift with ordnance other than two 1000lb bombs and six 5" HVAR rockets.
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Offline SmokinLoon

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Re: Tested HE
« Reply #12 on: December 24, 2012, 06:03:02 PM »
Interesting that you say "WRONG!" and then agree with everything.

I didn't agree with anything you said.  I posted a data set that corrected your proclamation that the Tiger has the "best" HE when you're own testing showed you didn't have any controls to compare it to.  The term "best" is a bit misleading when the other factors are brought in to play.  You didn't say a word about the T34/85, your controls, your targets, or how you measured damage.

Have you ever compared the Tiger II, Tiger, or T34/85 vs the M4/75 in just HE only? When comparing individual rounds sure all three have better HE damage then the M4/75mm, but when you bring in to consideration the rate of fire and the amount of ammo the tank is able to carry the M4/75 reigns supreme when it comes to assaulting a town.  

In terms of the 17 Pdr, I wont argue the fact that the data that HTC is using is the first or early version of the 17Pdr HE round. As the war progressed a new round became available it was was better.  If you were to line up real world tank HE rounds you'd see that HTC has taken liberties in grouping them together.  I wish they'd start with their control (312 lbs hardness on an OBJ), then scale the rounds out more closely to the real deal.  I'm not exactly sure why HTC has grouped the T34/85 in with the Tiger II and Tiger for it is more in line with the M4/75mm than it is the Tiger. The M8's 37mm would be the little guy on the block.  

... and be careful how you use the term "Lie", chum.   :ahand
« Last Edit: December 24, 2012, 06:06:21 PM by SmokinLoon »
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Offline Chalenge

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Re: Tested HE
« Reply #13 on: December 24, 2012, 07:02:49 PM »
Didnt need to. The purpose of the test was comparison of the M4A3-75 HE-APC with the Firefly.

Also obvious is the fact you pay little attention to what I have said previously about these tanks. I use the Tiger II and M4A3-75 almost exclusively and for different purposes. The Firefly ammunition is incorrect. Design your own test and prove me wrong. Please.
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Offline Chalenge

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Re: Tested HE
« Reply #14 on: December 24, 2012, 07:04:48 PM »
And there were apparently Fireflies that used HE rounds.  Just in insignificant numbers compared with the AP only Fireflies.  Just like the P-51Ds.

In AH you never see a P-51D lift with ordnance other than two 1000lb bombs and six 5" HVAR rockets.


Incorrect on all counts. Of course I expect this sort of misinformation from you.
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