HF Flight Model Arena

[colmbo]

When you go into a dogfight, probably more so in turning 1v1s, your visual cues are completely different than what you used to practice in an empty arena.

No they aren't.  The nose of the airplane is still out front of the windscreen.  Watching what the nose does lets you know what rudder is needed.

[MrRiplEy[H]]

No they aren't.  The nose of the airplane is still out front of the windscreen.  Watching what the nose does lets you know what rudder is needed.

When your nose points at the empty sky what good will watching it do for you? I'm curious.

[FLS]

When your nose points at the empty sky what good will watching it do for you? I'm curious.

You can turn your head. You don't need to look forward to see yaw.

The point is that you note the aircraft motion against a visual reference point. When you fly without an
outside visual reference, typically the horizon, landmark, or a cloud, then you use instruments.

[MrRiplEy[H]]

You can turn your head. You don't need to look forward to see yaw.

The point is that you note the aircraft motion against a visual reference point. When you fly without an
outside visual reference, typically the horizon, landmark, or a cloud, then you use instruments.

I don't know about you but when I'm doing ACM I'm concentrating 100% on the opposing plane / planes and have no time to watch for attitude.

[FLS]

I don't know about you but when I'm doing ACM I'm concentrating 100% on the opposing plane / planes and have no time to watch for attitude.

Either that's not true or you fly into the ground a lot. 

[MrRiplEy[H]]

Either that's not true or you fly into the ground a lot. 

Keeping track on your position relating to the ground is whole different from trying to figure out your planes angle of attack from visual ques.

[FLS]

Keeping track on your position relating to the ground is whole different from trying to figure out your planes angle of attack from visual ques.

We aren't talking about angle of attack, we're discussing the observation and correction of adverse yaw and you apparently, in direct opposition to your prior statement, use the same visual cues to track your attitude and avoid hitting the ground.   

[MrRiplEy[H]]

We aren't talking about angle of attack, we're discussing the observation and correction of adverse yaw and you apparently, in direct opposition to your prior statement, use the same visual cues to track your attitude and avoid hitting the ground.   

The yaw afaik affects the angle of attack which must be corrected to 'center the ball'. It's about 100x more demanding to try to judge the minute offset in the planes attitude only by the poor visual cues the game can offer than keeping track where you go in 3D space.

[ink]

I must be doing it wrong...my ball never stays center...never paid attention to it before...last time I flew I glanced at it....ya definitely not doing coordinated turns....

[FLS]

The yaw afaik affects the angle of attack which must be corrected to 'center the ball'. It's about 100x more demanding to try to judge the minute offset in the planes attitude only by the poor visual cues the game can offer than keeping track where you go in 3D space.

Yaw is easy to see whether it's from rolling i.e. adverse yaw, or from the rudder pedals. When you roll the rising wing and descending wing have different angles of attack giving them different amounts of lift and drag. You also have the aileron on the high wing adding drag. The correction for adverse yaw is adding rudder while rolling. You don't adjust the angle of attack, you just correct the yaw to point your aircraft in the direction you're flying.

[MrRiplEy[H]]

Yaw is easy to see whether it's from rolling i.e. adverse yaw, or from the rudder pedals. When you roll the rising wing and descending wing have different angles of attack giving them different amounts of lift and drag. You also have the aileron on the high wing adding drag. The correction for adverse yaw is adding rudder while rolling. You don't adjust the angle of attack, you just correct the yaw to point your aircraft in the direction you're flying.

If the ball wasn't there I wouldn't be able to tell from the screen that anything was wrong. In fact I've never cared much about it untill now when I broke my trusty Sidewinder twisting and turning at the same time

[muzik]

No they aren't.  The nose of the airplane is still out front of the windscreen.  Watching what the nose does lets you know what rudder is needed.

The example he used was rolling your wings and returning them. When we fight in this game we don't roll our wings and return them like this in a typical fight and as speed changes so does the amount of rudder needed to coordinate the exact same maneuver. In his example, the visual cue is your nose pointed at a mark on the horizon. In that case you could certainly see the yaw of the aircraft and could likely get good at a coordinated rolls.

Our 1v1 fights usually evolve into rolling scissors and as FLS said you are concentrating almost all of your attention on the other a/c. You are rolling inverted, back and constantly changing directions. The visual cue does not stay the same at all. Ever. There is almost no occasion to see yaw in your scenery and during the typical rolling scissors I encountered with better players, I have my rudder maxed out to one side or the other and never "see" the yaw if it is even evident because I am focused on the other guy.  

Uncoordinated flight in AH is the norm in those types of fights so even if Katanaso changed his example to go to the TA and practice rolling scissors alone and learn to keep your a/c coordinated you would only learn to get your a kicked. It's not the same. Even forgetting the angles advantage your opponent would get on you if you flew that way in a fight, coordination changes with speed and we don't do relaxed, smooth rolling scissors in fights.

Either that's not true or you fly into the ground a lot.  

Perhaps you should rethink that comment and consider seeing this occasion as an epiphany that revealed what you haven't learned yet.  

I must be doing it wrong...my ball never stays center...never paid attention to it before...last time I flew I glanced at it....ya definitely not doing coordinated turns....

Nah, you got it right again.

Combat flying is based on the slashing attack and rough maneuvering. In combat flying, fancy precision aerobatic work is really not of much use. Instead, it is the rough maneuver which succeeds.

— Colonel Erich 'Bubi' Hartmann Jagdgeschwader 52

Translated to "screw the ball."

[STXAce8]

If you fly a 109, you learn engine management, or die.

[ink]

The example he used was rolling your wings and returning them. When we fight in this game we don't roll our wings and return them like this in a typical fight and as speed changes so does the amount of rudder needed to coordinate the exact same maneuver. In his example, the visual cue is your nose pointed at a mark on the horizon. In that case you could certainly see the yaw of the aircraft and could likely get good at a coordinated rolls.

Our 1v1 fights usually evolve into rolling scissors and as FLS said you are concentrating almost all of your attention on the other a/c. You are rolling inverted, back and constantly changing directions. The visual cue does not stay the same at all. Ever. There is almost no occasion to see yaw in your scenery and during the typical rolling scissors I encountered with better players, I have my rudder maxed out to one side or the other and never "see" the yaw if it is even evident because I am focused on the other guy.  

Uncoordinated flight in AH is the norm in those types of fights so even if Katanaso changed his example to go to the TA and practice rolling scissors alone and learn to keep your a/c coordinated you would only learn to get your a kicked. It's not the same. Even forgetting the angles advantage your opponent would get on you if you flew that way in a fight, coordination changes with speed and we don't do relaxed, smooth rolling scissors in fights.


Perhaps you should rethink that comment and consider seeing this occasion as an epiphany that revealed what you haven't learned yet.  


Nah, you got it right again.

Combat flying is based on the slashing attack and rough maneuvering. In combat flying, fancy precision aerobatic work is really not of much use. Instead, it is the rough maneuver which succeeds.

— Colonel Erich 'Bubi' Hartmann Jagdgeschwader 52

Translated to "screw the ball."

 

[FLS]

The example he used was rolling your wings and returning them. When we fight in this game we don't roll our wings and return them like this in a typical fight and as speed changes so does the amount of rudder needed to coordinate the exact same maneuver. In his example, the visual cue is your nose pointed at a mark on the horizon. In that case you could certainly see the yaw of the aircraft and could likely get good at a coordinated rolls.

Our 1v1 fights usually evolve into rolling scissors and as FLS said you are concentrating almost all of your attention on the other a/c. You are rolling inverted, back and constantly changing directions. The visual cue does not stay the same at all. Ever. There is almost no occasion to see yaw in your scenery and during the typical rolling scissors I encountered with better players, I have my rudder maxed out to one side or the other and never "see" the yaw if it is even evident because I am focused on the other guy.  

Uncoordinated flight in AH is the norm in those types of fights so even if Katanaso changed his example to go to the TA and practice rolling scissors alone and learn to keep your a/c coordinated you would only learn to get your a kicked. It's not the same. Even forgetting the angles advantage your opponent would get on you if you flew that way in a fight, coordination changes with speed and we don't do relaxed, smooth rolling scissors in fights.


Perhaps you should rethink that comment and consider seeing this occasion as an epiphany that revealed what you haven't learned yet.  


Nah, you got it right again.

Combat flying is based on the slashing attack and rough maneuvering. In combat flying, fancy precision aerobatic work is really not of much use. Instead, it is the rough maneuver which succeeds.

— Colonel Erich 'Bubi' Hartmann Jagdgeschwader 52

Translated to "screw the ball."

You've misunderstood me, Colmbo, and Hartmann.