P51 service ceiling

[GScholz]

Sorry for all the edits; I'm a little too quick on the "Post" button today.

[GScholz]

Oldman, I just scanned quickly at the Southern Front claims. This late in the war they are predominantly of Soviet aircraft.

[GScholz]

We can only surmise that some of these Luftwaffe claims occurred during "tactical support of German ground forces" on the West Front, which, by nearly unanimous anecdotal accounts, was quite sparse except during the early Normandy fighting and for a few days during the Bulge.

- oldman

I'm curious: Which anecdotal accounts are you referring to?

[earl1937]

This is just wrong. RAF fighter units would operate out of captured Luftwaffe airfields in France, the Low Countries, even in Germany itself. To my knowledge the first Spitfire over Berlin was a Spitfire PR XI, flying from Allied controlled territory in France on 26th June 1944. It took this picture of Tempelhof airbase.
 
(Image removed from quote.)

:airplane:You make my point sir! The Spits, until after "D" day, in 44, did not have the combat range to escort the bombers deep into Germany and other European targets. The only reason the 51's could escort them all the way were the drop tanks. Even the "Jugs", even with 2 150 gallon on wing pylons and 1 75 gallon under the center line, could go part of the way, but it took the ole ponie to successfully provide escort all the way to Berlin and back. Then, you have to remember, by the time the Spits could go deep into Germany, the "Krauts" only had very in-experenced pilots flying any of their aircraft. Don't misunderstand my reply, the Spit was a great aircraft, just didn't have very long legs!

[GScholz]

I didn't see any combat reports from 1944 for the Spitfire.

The reason is very simple, the combat range had been exceeded for the Spits, by the allied bombers, hence, other than shipping patrols and training flights, not much use for the spits, from late 43 till end of war. NOt sure, but only could find a intercept mission against JU-88's attempting to bomb shipping in the Northern end of the Channel between Ireland and Holland, by Spit 16's.

This is just wrong. RAF fighter units would operate out of captured Luftwaffe airfields in France, the Low Countries, even in Germany itself. To my knowledge the first Spitfire over Berlin was a Spitfire PR XI, flying from Allied controlled territory in France on 26th June 1944. It took this picture of Tempelhof airbase.
 
(Image removed from quote.)

:airplane:You make my point sir! The Spits, until after "D" day, in 44, did not have the combat range to escort the bombers deep into Germany and other European targets. The only reason the 51's could escort them all the way were the drop tanks. Even the "Jugs", even with 2 150 gallon on wing pylons and 1 75 gallon under the center line, could go part of the way, but it took the ole ponie to successfully provide escort all the way to Berlin and back. Then, you have to remember, by the time the Spits could go deep into Germany, the "Krauts" only had very in-experenced pilots flying any of their aircraft. Don't misunderstand my reply, the Spit was a great aircraft, just didn't have very long legs!

You do not make any sense Sir. You mistake Milo's question as confirmation that there are no combat reports for the Spitfire from 1944. At no time during the war was the Spitfire not in combat. The Spitfire was in combat throughout 1944, not just after D-Day. Despite popular belief, which is starting to aggravate me, the air war in the west was not all about strategic bombing. Spitfires flew fighter sweeps  and escorted bombers over France and the Low Countries almost daily.

[Oldman731]

I'm curious: Which anecdotal accounts are you referring to?

You're asking me to prove a negative.  Why don't we reverse the question?  How many accounts have you seen of Allied troops on the western front being attacked by German aircraft?

- oldman

[GScholz]

Considering the Allied numerical advantage the Luftwaffe would have been mostly doing counter air interdiction. I.e. trying to prevent Allied fighter-bombers from doing their job. Supporting ground forces also means protecting them, not just shooting at the other guys.

However they did that too. I quote from "Luftwaffe over Arnhem":

"During the Battle of Arnhem/Oosterbeek the Germans were able to effectively request air support through the Luftwaffe Liaison officers located within the IInd SS Pz Kps HQs during the whole operational period.  The Liaison officers requested air support not only for engaging allied transports over the drop zones but also for air cover for German troop movements as well as strafing runs on known British strong points. Of course the Luftwaffe did not always hit the right target on the ground and the Germans did suffer casualties from their own planes during the operation.

During the period 17th – 26th September 1944, the Luftwaffe employed up to 10 different Jagdgeschwaders that flew from airfields such as Dortmund, Werl, Paderborn, Guetersloh, Stoermede, Achmer, Lippspringe and Plantluenne. They were to score a total of 122 victories over this period with more than half of them coming from JG 11 and JG 26 combined. It was these two units during September 1944 that housed the famous Luftwaffe Aces or ‘Experten' such as Priller, Grislawski, Mietusch and Krupinski."

[GScholz]

You're asking me to prove a negative.

No. I'm asking about the anecdotal accounts you were referring to?

[Oldman731]

No. I'm asking about the anecdotal accounts you were referring to?

I think we're done here.  You can have the last word.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y

- oldman

[earl1937]

You do not make any sense Sir. You mistake Milo's question as confirmation that there are no combat reports for the Spitfire from 1944. At no time during the war was the Spitfire not in combat. The Spitfire was in combat throughout 1944, not just after D-Day. Despite popular belief, which is starting to aggravate me, the air war in the west was not all about strategic bombing. Spitfires flew fighter sweeps  and escorted bombers over France and the Low Countries almost daily.

I did not mean to start an augrument about the value of the Spit in winning the war sir! The only point I brought up was the fact that the Spit did not have fuel range for bomber escort, until after "D" day time frame. Even then, it was late August, if I remember right before any forward bases were established for the Spit to operate from. As far as Strategic bombing is concerned, there would not be an end to the war as quickly as it happened, with-out bombers killing the oil supplies, bearing factories and aircraft factories which were producing the war machine run by that "paper-hanging SOB" as General Geo Patton refered to him. It took all elements of the allied forces to bring the war to an end, not just one part. History has proved that the destruction of oil supplies and the constant bombing of the "bearing" factories, both roller bearings and ball bearings which really allowed the war to end as soon as it did.
From the history I have read, the Spit operated mostly in and around the "front" line area's, keeping the German fighter-bombers off the troops and convoys. Of course, one of the vauable missions flown by spits, because of their speed, were "photo" recon missions.

[MiloMorai]

Spitfires also flew escort to the American heavies, freeing up more American escorts for the deep penatration missions.

[Old Sport]

... But when they're at 30K the 51 is useless. That's when I started checking into the service ceiling of the 51D. It appears to me that the service ceiling for the 51D is around 30K in the game and not the 41900K listed from outside sources.

For kicks I put the D into auto climb and let it go. I came back a some time later to check and it was at 37,400, and in very minimal climb. Tried it again and shot all ammo after takeoff. This time it went to 37,600. One more time, climbed to about 37,000 and then tried to finess by going to level, and then manual trim up. I got to 38,900 and the stall buzzer came on.

Then, I put the B into auto climb and let it go. I came back later and it was holding at 41,000.

I compared the B's and D's manifold pressures at 30K, and lower, for every 1000 feet difference and I found.

B
30000 - 40
29000 - 45
28000 - 50
27000 - 55
26000 - 60
25000 - 63 wep
24000 - 67 wep

D
30000 - 50
29000 - 53
28000 - 55
27000 - 57
26000 - 60
25000 - 63 wep
24000 - 67 wep

I was under the impression that the Merlin V-1650-3 of the B had higher manifold pressure at higher alts than the Merlin V-1650-7 of the D.

The following link has reports that show different manifold pressures.

There are also remarks that the higher octane fuel does improve performance somewhat.

Have fun... 

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/mustangtest.html

[GScholz]

I did not mean to start an augrument about the value of the Spit in winning the war sir! The only point I brought up was the fact that the Spit did not have fuel range for bomber escort, until after "D" day time frame.

I'm sorry, it just seemed like you didn't think there were any combat reports from 1944 for the Spitfire. Despite the fact that none are presented on that site, I assure you that's not the case.

I didn't see any combat reports from 1944 for the Spitfire.

The reason is very simple, the combat range had been exceeded for the Spits, by the allied bombers, hence, other than shipping patrols and training flights, not much use for the spits, from late 43 till end of war. NOt sure, but only could find a intercept mission against JU-88's attempting to bomb shipping in the Northern end of the Channel between Ireland and Holland, by Spit 16's.

[GScholz]

There are also remarks that the higher octane fuel does improve performance somewhat.

Below full pressure altitude, yes. Above that altitude the blower is unable to sustain the manifold pressure required to take advantage of the higher octane rating.

[J_A_B]

There's some evidence to suggest that the Aces High P-51D's performance may decline above critical altitude more quickly than that of the actual airplane.  Historic flight test data posted on various web sites consistently show V-1650-7 powered Mustangs at military weights maintaining a climb rate in the vicinity of 1500 to 1600 feet per minute at 30,000 feet with a ceiling somewhere in the general vicinity of 41,000.  The last time I tested the P-51D in aces high, with similar weights I was climbing at a mere 1100 FPM at 30K and my climbs topped out at about 38K.  I was able to stagger up to about 39K if I stripped the plane as bare as I could (4 guns, no ammo, hardly any fuel) but that doesn't represent the condition used in the real flight tests.

By comparison, the V-1650-3 powered Mustangs could sustain a climb of over 2K feet/min at 30,000 feet, still decidedly better than where the -7 equipped planes tested to.

The climb performance of the P-51D in aces high very closely mirrors that of a performance calculation prepared by North American around the end of the war.  That report was an estimate, not a flight test.

Yeah, I still lurk here from time to time.

J_A_B