the most timid

[Babalonian]

Because it takes too long to get back to the base from one a sector distant? 

I'm interested in Caldera's question.  What about that group of people capping the base, making fun of someone who tries to up from it?

- oldman

So then it's the failed logic of the attackers then, who are flying one sector distance to wait and watch (or, like me, choose to not and roll the dice in the gauntlet (or maybe even try deacking)) red guys up to immediatley begin flying in circles around their ack guns, because we came looking about one sector for something to fight/kill.  Do I understand you, correctly?

Since "the wrong" is upon those "suckers" that are investing the time to fly one sector, yes?

[Wiley]

I just realized my previous post left out an important component of why I think it's okay for people to run.

When I come into the enemy area with my alt, I usually hold all the cards on the first guy or two I engage, or at least am co-E with them.  I'm screaming in with smash looking for the high guys looking for a pick/defending buffs, then I'm looking for buffs, and if neither is in the area, targets of opportunity.  I work my way from the top down.

What a lot of people do when I come in at ridiculous speed is split-s and run to the crowd.  It's not a terrible move, ruins my shot unless my predictions are particularly good that day, and puts them into a stronger defensive situation.  I now have to come down into their crowd if I want to play.

Why is that wrong of them?  I've now still got my advantage, but I have a multitude of targets to problem-solve for and try to figure out where the next threat is.  I've also got to consider the dots co-alt out of icon range, whether they're friend or foe.  Etc etc.

Often while I'm doing this, there's a bunch of friendly guys doing their thing below 5k feet.  The guy that ran from me is now not in nearly as comfortable a position to pick as he was.  He's also looking over his shoulder at me because he didn't deal with the threat.  Maybe now more of my buddies have the E to be threats to him.

I'm also now in a position to attack or push down other bandits as I see fit.  I have achieved more control over the airspace all because the high con didn't engage me.

Of course, sometimes it'll be a guy that knows what he's doing and the high alt fight is on.

My point is, I created the advantages I'm using against them, they aren't giving me anything in that fight, and it's up to me to keep my advantage or fight well enough when I decide to give it up to survive.  If I get low and slow and someone outruns me headed to friendlies, I can't fault him for getting away from me.

To me, that feels more organic and 'real' than everybody being fearless and engaging when I come in with smash.

Wiley.

[FLS]

why do you keep saying "duel"...  this thread is an opinion piece on who we think are the most timid players in AH... it's simple...   I have been specific in my choice for most timid and I chose the player that always runs unless he is part of the ganging...  calling them timid is being too nice....  I now place you on the timid list as I bet you play this exact same way...  at least your stats suggest that.... when I see a vet only cherry picking, and running 3 sectors at the first sight of anything co-state, I lose respect for that player, and you coming in here defending that type of play means you're right there with them...  

I brought up duels because the opinions expressed regarding MA players being obligated to engage are only reasonable expectations for duels.

I understand the OP just wanted to name and shame players.

I'm not defending timid flying, I'm defending a player's right to fly any way they please without being abused, because they pay to play the same as you do.

If you can believe I'm timid I don't mind.    
         

[Scotch]

I brought up duels because the opinions expressed regarding MA players being obligated to engage are only reasonable expectations for duels.

No, not really.

[uptown]

FLS, although you're argument about paying players should be able to play they way they want to without harassment or ridicule may be valid to an certain extent, by the same token we as paying players have the right to expect what is considered "acceptable" play by the vast majority of players.

Case in point...bailing from bombers. Sure, you are allowed to bomb your target and are not forced to land, but most of the player base would agree that this is not acceptable game play.

I find it hard to believe that you yourself would not get miffed at the guy that would do nothing but swoop down from space, guns blazing in the head-on repeatedly and then running home to the safety of his ack. In real life that might be acceptable..I personally would be worried about court martial for cowardest.

But this isn't real life. It's a combat game meant to be played. Play it for Christ's sakes! The air races are in the SEA arenas.

I have no problem breaking off from the fight when advantage is lost or you're completely out numbered. But reset, come back and finish the fight. If out numbered at least try to drag out single cons for a 1vs1. Don't run clear across the map trying to avoid be shot down.
You as a trainer should know that this is time you need that ACM training under your belt. What's the point in training folks on ACM if you don't encourage them to use it?

[Vinkman]

Ok, I'll take the proverbial whack at it.  While I'm not generally inclined to run from a somewhat fair 1v1, I'm sure most of you guys would consider my MA style timid depending on the situation you ran into me on.

Usually I log in, find the biggest red bar dar I can, and up far enough away from it to get there with alt.  Simply put, my goal when I fly is to push the enemy around airspace.  I'm there to stop them from moving forward, hit the bombers/heavy fighters that are trying to degrade our capabilities, and kill as many aircraft as I can pretty much in that order.  Stopping the advance goes hand in hand with hitting bombers most of the time.  

I like to land my kills.  Has precisely nothing to do with my name in lights.  Why do I do it then?  Because it means I did my job and survived to go home.  Anybody can go into a crowd and shoot at anything that comes into range and rack up some kills until they're picked.  Sure, it takes skill to survive for a long while doing it.  Only an idiot would say otherwise.

To me, playing that way is essentially not caring whether you live or die.  Constantly putting yourself in situations where you're inevitably going to get shot down to me is little different from taking a HO shot.  If you HO enough people, you're eventually going to die.  If you dive into a big enough crowd of red, you're eventually going to die.  Same difference.

Where I get my jollies is trying to figure out how to kill some of them and get away with it, rather than going down in a blaze of glory.  If I am not thinking of my exit strategy, it takes 3/4 of the tension away from the fight, because I don't have to worry about getting out of the situation I'm in.

There are pretty much 4 situations that will get me to get out of dodge:

1) 3 or more bandits with E are looking my way and I have no help.
2) Low fuel.
3) Low ammo.
4) Missing enough control surfaces or have taken enough damage to make me ineffective.  Usually some combination of ailerons and rudder.

I hope that makes some sense.

Wiley.

Wiley,

thanks for that. I can say that I agree with this whole thing, and play very much the same way. I will leave a fight if ganged, or I'm out of gas etc..  I don't really whine at runners, becasue they could have a ligit reason for running as you have explained. Every run is not the same. But do these career runners fall in the same category? True story....

Pilot, who has won the tour several times, shows up at 20k in a Pony on a very light action weekday morning. I'm at 12k in a 109k4. I push a very bad situation and climb as straight up at him as I can. He Climb away from me! not a single pass, no guns, no  nothing. I level out to get enough speed to keep him icon range. He turns for home at 28K. I persue. At 4K icon he goes nose down. I chase him for over two sectors at nearly 500mph. He tries to drag me over field ack at two different bases, but doesn't stop at the base, just makes me go around it to get more seperation. He eventually ends up at CV. I break off and lug the engine down just make it back to friendly territory where I ditch. I re-up back at the base and about 10 minutes into the sortie he's back. No eggs, no rockets, flying around looking for a con I supposed. SO I ablige by heading his way and off he goes...again. <sigh>

Seriously?  

[Vinkman]

I'm defending a player's right to fly any way they please without being abused, because they pay to play the same as you do.          

The community is making it clear that their flying style is a form of abuse. You, choose not to recognize it as such. 

[SkyRock]

I brought up duels because the opinions expressed regarding MA players being obligated to engage are only reasonable expectations for duels.

I understand the OP just wanted to name and shame players.

I'm not defending timid flying, I'm defending a player's right to fly any way they please without being abused, because they pay to play the same as you do.

If you can believe I'm timid I don't mind.    
         

bottom line is, if someone flies the way I described, then it should not offend them to be called out for it... it is what it is... lame as hell!  Nobody is "abusing" anyone.... a critique by others should be expected, we have a scoring system, do you think it is abuse that a players rank is 3500?  Is HT abusing them by a system that ranks them that low?  No... it is what it is... if anything it should be an incentive to grow a pair and get off this list! 

[ACE]

This is like calling someone a camper on Call of Duty...

[Oldman731]

So then it's the failed logic of the attackers then, who are flying one sector distance to wait and watch (or, like me, choose to not and roll the dice in the gauntlet (or maybe even try deacking)) red guys up to immediatley begin flying in circles around their ack guns, because we came looking about one sector for something to fight/kill.  Do I understand you, correctly?

Since "the wrong" is upon those "suckers" that are investing the time to fly one sector, yes?

It may be that I don't grasp your response (I find it happens often these days).  I understood from Caldera's post that there are people capping a base who make fun of someone who ups against their superior numbers and circles in his ack.  I don't understand why they would make fun of him.  Presumably they (or at least all of them except you) don't want to fly into the ack because they risk getting shot down.  They would prefer that the target of their scorn up from a distant base so that they will be free to strafe the ack, or come out of the ack at an altitude disadvantage so they can vulch him, or do whatever else people do when they're part of an unopposed bunch capping a base.  That strikes me as far more timid than the action of the defender climbing in his ack.

Hey, if you let the guy climb up a bit he might just come out of the ack and give you a fight.  Wasn't that what you wanted?

- oldman

[Reaper90]

I would go further Dr. Changeup and say that it is a manifestation of an increasingly results-focused and egotistical Western culture announcing primarily as an insecure symptomatic mismatch betwixt words and deeds, the newly installed 'Kill Club' section of our forum being a prime example of the value of presentation over content.

I am almost insulted, sir.

I thought it was very worthy of public recognition the way that I mastered... no.... PWN'd! that steak and cheese chimichanga!

Good Day to you, SIR!

[nrshida]

Don't you think it has more to do with Timid Timmy lacking the confidence to fight on your terms?  In a P-38, I don't have the skill to engage and kill a Ki-84 unless I have some sort of an advantage.  I'm simply not good enough.

I think fighting is awesome.  Sometimes I mindlessly furball and fight in an effort to sharpen my skills.  Disadvantage be damned.  I mean, it is instructive.  You really do learn to push your a/c a little further, and that's a good thing.  I reach a point though, where I feel like I'm just being a dummy.  Up.  Shoot.  Kill.  Die.  Repeat.  Doing that over and over (or stone sober  ) isn't really fun to me.  It's then I start trying to actually pay attention to stuff around me.  Yes, that means I'm actually trying to survive.  Sometimes that means discretion is the better form of valor, knowing one's limitations, and other profound expressions.  

 

I think Timid Timmy has simply found he can get kills and land them for all the world to see while mostly managing to avoid playing the actual 'game' completely. Of course thinking in absolutes isn't useful.

Your second paragraph is interesting. Is your internal purpose to fight hard and try to win in this circumstance or to try and experiment with your ACM and expand your technique?

hmmmm, this feels like an insult

You know where to find me if you want to fight about it. 

I am almost insulted, sir.

I thought it was very worthy of public recognition the way that I mastered... no.... PWN'd! that steak and cheese chimichanga!

Good Day to you, SIR!

 

[mechanic]

Timid is just a word used in substitute of 'Why don't you fly in a way that I can kill you?'

[nrshida]

.

[nrshida]

Timid is just a word used in substitute of 'Why don't you fly in a way that I can kill you?'

It can be but not necessarily.

Yesterday I was flying a Mosquito against a Ki-84 flown by one of the Nippon Gyogyoukyoudoukumiai. We began roughly co-e but he refused to manoeuvre with me and broke off to climb until he could set up a BnZ-based fight. I do not know that I could have defeated him in a manoeuvring fight but I was willing to try and he was not, he played it safe and arranged the fight in the safest way possible for himself by way of superior climb rate.

He was looking for a kill, I was looking for a fight. He got what he wanted but I didn't. Arguably he was smarter to secure every advantage possible especially if his emphasis is on 'winning' but it doesn't make for good gameplay. 

In my opinion just how much advantage players find necessary to secure before engaging is a good measure of how timid they are.