Which is better, the Bf109-G2, or the Bf-109-K4?

[Ardy123]

Why?  Just do it in a 109, F4U, F6F, P47 or other plane in real life.  If the flight model in AH is at all accurate it should be a very safe maneuver that's easy to recover from.  

Here, you go do it in a real plane, but before you do, let me take a life insurance policy out in your name, ok?

[GScholz]

What do you mean "why"? All the aircraft you've mentioned are fully aerobatic. You'd still be a moron for doing it in a vintage war-bird today though. However, back then I'm sure a lot of test pilots explored the departure characteristics of fighter aircraft. The 109, at least the early models, did have very forgiving departure characteristics to the point where you could "ride the stall" by holding it with the rudder, and hang on the prop and tail-slide.

[Nath[BDP]]

haha, no way.  I really don't believe that maneuver is as forgiving in real life as it is in Aces High -- hence my interest in getting HTC's opinion on it or at least taking a look at it.  So far they have been mute on the matter.   They are busy.  But the game should be about ACM, and this stuff is just "gamey" to the extreme.  

Just an example but...

It took HTC 2 years to fix the flap model.  At the start of AH2, if you dropped flaps, it made the nose DROP rather than go up.
Which is of course wrong. Flaps add lift and should push the nose up, even if a little bit.
HTC never tested it with combat trim enabled, so they didn't believe it was happening.  

[Nath[BDP]]

What do you mean "why"? All the aircraft you've mentioned are fully aerobatic. You'd still be a moron for doing it in a vintage war-bird today though. However, back then I'm sure a lot of test pilots explored the departure characteristics of fighter aircraft. The 109, at least the early models, did have very forgiving departure characteristics to the point where you could "ride the stall" by holding it with the rudder, and hang on the prop and tail-slide.

You said I would be a fool to attempt this in real life.  By this I'm assuming you mean it would result in me entering some crazy spin and end in a fiery wreck.  This just does not occur in some planes in Aces High when doing this move.  Some planes, such as the ones I mentioned and specifically the 109, reach a maximum nose-swinging degree and then just "snap back" to the normal angle.  Hence me suggesting ("Why?"), if the Aces High flight model is at all realistic, this would be no danger at all to attempt in real life.  

[GScholz]

Read the whole sentence... and stop assuming.

You seem to have a simplistic view of how flaps work. How flaps affect pitch is dependent of several factors: The increase in lift created by the increased wing area and chamber will lead to a pitch-up moment if the centre of pressure remains in front of the centre of gravity. If the associated rearward movement of the centre of pressure is behind the centre of gravity, then this will produce a nose-down pitch. The flaps will cause an increase in the downwash, and this will reduce the angle of attack of the tailplane, giving a nose-up moment. The increase in drag caused by the flaps will cause a nose-up or nose-down moment depending on whether the flaps are above or below the lateral axis.

In the 109 there was a noticeable nose-down movement when extending flaps.

[Nath[BDP]]

You seem to have a simplistic view of how flaps work. How flaps affect pitch is dependent of several factors: The increase in lift created by the increased wing area and chamber will lead to a pitch-up moment if the centre of pressure remains in front of the centre of gravity. If the associated rearward movement of the centre of pressure is behind the centre of gravity, then this will produce a nose-down pitch. The flaps will cause an increase in the downwash, and this will reduce the angle of attack of the tailplane, giving a nose-up moment. The increase in drag caused by the flaps will cause a nose-up or nose-down moment depending on whether the flaps are above or below the lateral axis.

In the 109 there was a noticeable nose-down movement when extending flaps.

Thanks for the detail, but I was just pointing out that at one time combat trim did not account for flap usage -- and HTC fixed it.  Note, combat trim.  Just pointing out an occasion where HTC really went out of there way to enhance the flight model.   

 

Read the whole sentence... and stop assuming.

Can be done with almost any aircraft in real-life too, just takes a complete moron to actually do it in anything but a purpose built stunt/display plane.

So what's the reason I shouldn't attempt this maneuver in anything but a stunt plane?  I seem to be missing the point, I guess.  A totally recoverable maneuver shouldn't be at all moronic to attempt, right?

[Nath[BDP]]

I also noticed something curious about this move.  It does not work with the engine off (yeah obviously we've known its a product of engine torque) but works with the throttle at zero, and in fact seems equally easy to engage at zero as 100% power.

[Nath[BDP]]

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[GScholz]

Here's a Yak 55 doing the things you assume would end in a "fiery wreck". WWII fighters have better power to weight ratios than this Yak, and the turners like the Zeke and Brewster have similar wing loading.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_GkJDUeYpk&feature=player_detailpage#t=40s

[Nath[BDP]]

Here's a Yak 55 doing the things you assume would end in a "fiery wreck". WWII fighters have better power to weight ratios than this Yak, and the turners like the Zeke and Brewster have similar wing loading.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_GkJDUeYpk&feature=player_detailpage#t=40s

At which point in the video?  I want to be sure we're looking at the same thing.

At around 00:40 I see a series of snap rolls, and throughout the video a number of hammerheads.  Not exactly the same thing.  Nor does the nose return to the original orientation when he's doing these hammerheads as it does when executing the "cobra" in Aces High (see the Krupnski video http://youtu.be/dBgHv_GgAW0) Cobrainski starts out the move slightly nose up and comes out of it slightly nose down, completing in almost 360.

In Aces High, the nose is swinging around laterally (sideways) almost 180 degrees.  

[GScholz]

At 45 secs... It's just a simple accelerated stall, and the prop wash over the tail surface helps push it beyond its dynamic stability threshold making it pancake into the direction of travel. The more powerful the engine, and the larger control surfaces compared to stabilizers, the easier it is to do. Nowadays it is generally known as the "cobra maneuver" after Russian jet pilots started doing the same thing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgHoBDW56CI

[GScholz]

Here's Peter Besenyei doing it in his typical extreme fashion... He departs sideways!:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=2M614k90r9c#t=151s

[Nath[BDP]]

At 45 secs... It's just a simple accelerated stall, and the prop wash over the tail surface helps push it beyond its dynamic stability threshold making it pancake into the direction of travel. The more powerful the engine, and the larger control surfaces compared to stabilizers, the easier it is to do. Nowadays it is generally known as the "cobra maneuver" after Russian jet pilots started doing the same thing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgHoBDW56CI

Close, and I named my video after that since its a catchy title, but it is indeed very different in AH.  The Russian jets are doing this move in the pitch axis, in Aces High it is almost entirely done in the yaw axis (although elevator input is required to execute it at first), as the nose is swinging violently lateral. 

[GScholz]

See my Peter Besenyei post...

[GScholz]

109s have very large rudder surface compared to the stabilizer so it is very easy to make them depart sideways. Combined with a very powerful engine in a small airframe and you have something that can really do some impressive post-stall maneuvering.

Modern aerobatics planes ave all their control surfaces in the propwash so they remain in control after stalling. WWII fighters don't, so they lose most of their aileron control after departing. However they still have the rudder and elevators.