Rash of 109s and 190s

[Debrody]

Muzik,
what did you want to prove with that? The Spitfire is a better plane than the 109? Of course, you are right, its one of the very best aircrafts. Ergo is it ridiculously easy to fly? How the bloody hell not?
My/our point is: what is more of fighting, turning spits with 109 or vice versa? Let them decide    Also, an experienced pilot flying the easyest easy mode plane and talking big is something weird, dont you think so?

[Charge]

"Yes, Spitfires are easy mode.  They were easy mode in WWII as well, and that is a good thing, contrary to popular opinion here."

Spitfires may be easy mode in a game but I'm not at all sure if they were very easy mode IRL, especially in battle, while it was more forgiving to rookies than the 109.

Lets list a few factors overlooked in games:

1. Floppy wings/ailerons -caused the outboard guns to fire here and there in turns or under load, aileron reversal in dives, poor aileron response along with poor contoller design. While clipping the wingtips may have improved the roll rate later on it could not overcome the effects of flexy wing causing slow aileron response. This is also why the wing was made more rigid later during development.

2. Poor ergonomics -complicated engine controls in form on manual mixture and supercharger controls, upright sitting position affecting G tolerance of the pilot in hard maneuvers, poor rear view, poor controller harmony causing heavy ailerons, sensitive elevator, poor rudder authority (rudder was enlarged constantly as the engines improved)

3. Narrow landing gear, while the landing was easier than that of e.g. 109 the landing gear was too narrow and along with soft shock absorbing ground looping was not uncommon while not as fatal as that of 109. Softness made it more manageable, though.

4. Sudden stall which could easily develop into a flat stall. This was partially remedied by adding the load in elevator control, but still the stall was vicious if the warnings were ignored.

These are shortcomings not modeled in games which would affect its usability in combat. Some could be easily added but not all.

-C+

[Bruv119]

nice observations charge however point 4, 

All marks of Spit can go into the dreaded flat spin when pushed to the very limit with the flap down.   More common in the Spit 1 / 5 and 9.

We jokingly referred to this stall as "you've krupped it"  because he would manage to do it very frequently until he spent enough time learning the plane to prevent himself from doing it. 

So here was a K4 experten trying to perform on the edge in a Spit and failing horribly until he got the knack of knowing when the tail was stepping out.  So one can argue that any 109 being nose heavy in the stall gives those pilots a much easier time of it when performing rolling scissors.   With no chance of losing complete control.

The difference between flying a plane "ok" and pushing it to the very limits of it's capabilities are two very different things.  I'll do that in whatever ride I choose from the hangar and fly it to it's strengths.   Not make bad choices in the MA environment and then resort to the keyboard after i'm back in the tower.

[Debrody]

Nonsense, Bruv.

Honestly, the D11 jug stalls even better than the 109s. Steady, predictable - see Lepape. So folowing your logic, D11 is easy mode, Spit9 is amazingly difficult.

You in D11, me in spit9, lets see how many you can win from 100...   
(not if i could win one in the jug...)

[kvuo75]

The Great Arena Split happened in 2006

but when was the time where there was one LW arena during the "day" and two during "night"?

within the last 2 years? I think.

[Nath[BDP]]

We jokingly referred to this stall as "you've krupped it"  because he would manage to do it very frequently until he spent enough time learning the plane to prevent himself from doing it.  

So here was a K4 experten trying to perform on the edge in a Spit and failing horribly until he got the knack of knowing when the tail was stepping out.  So one can argue that any 109 being nose heavy in the stall gives those pilots a much easier time of it when performing rolling scissors.   With no chance of losing complete control.

krupped it, I like that.  

Seems like that sideways nose stall cobrinski stuff is all prevalent these days.  From all the people I've fought since I returned I appreciate Bruv's ACM. Doesn't resort to moves like that to make up for lack of ACM prowess.

Since I returned I have been pretty much blown away at the capabilities of the 109 FM specifically the K4 compared to when I left in 2005.  It can do such crazy out of flight envelop stuff without any noticeable side effects, including that cobra maneuver when it lets you drop your speed to 0 MPH and then auto corrects you out of it and bounces speed back up to normal instantly.  I don't see any other plane that can do that so well and instantly (the P47 and F4U might approach it, but the vertical abilities of the K4 set it apart especially being able to regain the vertical in scissors), the Spit will just go into a spin if you take it that low with that cobra maneuver.  

For what its worth I have flown 109s and 190s in AH since the game started.  I have every desire to see the performance of these planes reaching X Wing vs TIE Fighter levels but the things the current FM allows now without any disadvantage is just cray cray.  

Combined with its current FM and the 30mm, you have a plane that is nearly untouchable and after a few iterations can handle most things in a knife fight.  I rather miss when the G10/K4 were less accessible to people.

[Nath[BDP]]

Nonsense, Bruv.

Honestly, the D11 jug stalls even better than the 109s. Steady, predictable - see Lepape. So folowing your logic, D11 is easy mode, Spit9 is amazingly difficult.

You in D11, me in spit9, lets see how many you can win from 100...   
(not if i could win one in the jug...)

Even if that's true, the D11 still doesn't enjoy all the other advantages of the K4:  Speed, lethality, acceleration, roll rate, and half size smaller target. 

[Debrody]

Even if that's true, the D11 still doesn't enjoy all the other advantages of the K4:  Speed, lethality, acceleration, roll rate, and half size smaller target.  

True, it was an extreme example. Still:
-109 =/= K4, just the same way as Spit =/= 16
-the jug isnt lethal? Man, through theese two years, i could never hit anything with the tater what was 500+ out... maybe my aim is horrible, but imo the jug is much better at distance.
-the only way the 109 can roll is a snaproll. Otherwise its pretty much lower-medicore through its speed range, not to talk about the 430mph compression.

Stating that the 109 is easyer than the spit is pure nonsense. Honestly, the spit8/9/16 does the hammerhead/tailwip reversal much easyer than the 109. The only spit being poor at the stall is the spit1.
True, its only based on my feelings, and im not fammiliar with either of them. But when i was flying a 109 after the 190, i have the same "easy mode engaged, i can beat anyone" feeling than when i upped a spit after a 109.

[Nath[BDP]]

True, it was an extreme example. Still:
-109 =/= K4, just the same way as Spit =/= 16
-the jug isnt lethal? Man, through theese two years, i could never hit anything with the tater what was 500+ out... maybe my aim is horrible, but imo the jug is much better at distance.
-the only way the 109 can roll is a snaproll. Otherwise its pretty much lower-medicore through its speed range, not to talk about the 430mph compression.

Stating that the 109 is easyer than the spit is pure nonsense. Honestly, the spit8/9/16 does the hammerhead/tailwip reversal much easyer than the 109. The only spit being poor at the stall is the spit1.
True, its only based on my feelings, and im not fammiliar with either of them. But when i was flying a 109 after the 190, i have the same "easy mode engaged, i can beat anyone" feeling than when i upped a spit after a 109.

Don't get me wrong there is quite a difference between the K4 and the other series 109s.  I tried to emphasize the K4 in my post.

Lethality I was referring to relatively close shots, snapshots where the out of flight envelope maneuverability of the K4 would be paramount.  The 30mm here is just devastating, and if you set your P47s convergence for sniping, then your close in lethality is sacrificed.  The nose mounted cannon really is a genius placement, and while not as often as I like, I have hit some far out shots with it.   I set my convergence out to 650, and it gives the round a little more of an arc, which benefits me in a few ways.

I am not really saying the K4 is inherently easier than a Spit, but it is very much more capable especially in the right hands.  Certainly a new pilot will be turned away by the difficulty in first aiming with the 30mm, will be mystified at the subtleties of a snap roll, and not understand flap usage, but with a little practice worlds can open up.  I have tangled with some of the better pilots in the game, me in a K4 they in turny planes (spit, ki84) and continually impressed with the K4s ability to hang and turn the tables.  Add to that the ability to disengage from any of these planes at will.  It was actually always sort of like that, even back with the old 109G10 (the predecessor to the K4 in AH) but the change in flap effect and airflow has allowed the plane to do more wonky stuff around the yaw axis for some reason. 

There's a reason why you see most of the tailslides/cobra/whatever films come from K4 drivers: because it's infinitely easier to do and forgiving in the 109K4.  The spit is very unstable in this regard.

[Karnak]

There is a Spitfire that can compete with the Bf109K-4, but due to its perk price and short range it is rarely seen and even more rarely mastered.

Free the Spitfire Mk XIV!!!

[thrila]

I love the spit14 but i hope we can agree it is one of the most unstable aircraft at low speeds in AH and IMO inferior to the K4.

[Nath[BDP]]

I love the spit14 but i hope we can agree it is one of the most unstable aircraft at low speeds in AH and IMO inferior to the K4.

Yes

[Lusche]

I love the spit14 but i hope we can agree it is one of the most unstable aircraft at low speeds in AH and IMO inferior to the K4.

Absolutely.

[Bruv119]

Nonsense, Bruv.

Honestly, the D11 jug stalls even better than the 109s. Steady, predictable - see Lepape. So folowing your logic, D11 is easy mode, Spit9 is amazingly difficult.

You in D11, me in spit9, lets see how many you can win from 100...   
(not if i could win one in the jug...)

where have I said the Spits are not easy mode?   

All i'm saying is that every plane can be deemed easy if one takes the time to master it.   If you fight the d11 's fight in lets say a 190D or several different 109's  (low and slow) it will be more than a match for them.   Stop comparing apples to oranges and move on from the hate.   

and yes the spit 14 needs looking at!! 

[Debrody]

I have never stated that the 109 isnt forgiving... yes, it is! But an other thing, it turns around in 19 seconds, on a 550 yards circle, while the spit8 does it in 15.5 seconds, on a 430 yards circle...

The K4 is very capable, yet very hard to fly really well - to take advantage of its great post-stall abilities. I have only seen a very few, maybe a dozen pilots flying this plane to its full potential. In the other hand, some folks just use the raw speed and climb rate: the K4 turns into an easy mode pick-n-run beast, only limited by the compression. I dont like that kind of flying.

Back in the day, when i was flying G6s, and was trying to learn the proper usage of the post-stall moves, a very decent pilot called me to the DA and was choosing Spit16s. I have never been flying that aircraft before that and was amazed, how ridiculously easily it went nose-up, did the tailslide-hammerhead and went nose-up again. True, that aircraft wont tolerate the rapage on the controls like a G6, but surely felt much easyer to fly. The spit8/9 with their longer wings were a bit different though, but those moves werent impossible, after 2-3 tries, i could pull them just the same as in the 109. Again, they wont tolerate the very extreme control inputs like the 109, but arent nearly as horrible as Bruv is trying to tell.

For the spit14: its very close to the K4, but a bit slower, a bit better climber, turns clearly better but on a larger radius, and now, this spit is really unstable.

For Bruv: is that the D9's flight what you demonstrated in the TOC/koth? Nope, good sir, i refuse that kind of flying. There are enough from those ponies, 190s, lalas, 109s, mjugs, even a couple spits too out there, no need for one more 190 flying that way.
Give me a valid reason to stop hating, please, and i will do it instantly and happily.