He177 ?

[alpini13]

yes,we need a late war axis bomber to compete with the b-29.  he-177,would be best, heck ,even the do-217 would be good.

[Karnak]

yes,we need a late war axis bomber to compete with the b-29.  he-177,would be best, heck ,even the do-217 would be good.

There was no Axis bomber to compete with the B-29.  There was only one Allied bomber that could compete with the B-29, the plane ordered as backup in case the B-29 failed, the B-32.

[Wmaker]

The historical footnote He177A-5 would heavily overshadow the historically major Lancaster and likely take much of the use from the B-24J and maybe the B-17G.  The fact that it would only overshadow the Lancaster like that due to completely fictional usability is the core problem.

How is that a problem when looking at the MA? Well, you don't have to like it but I for one don't really see it as a problem. There are already several planes in the game which see vast amount of usage compared to what they saw during the war. For example, Ki-84, which you advocated to be added to the game, had really bad engine problems throughout its service in the war and sees heavier use in the LWMA than many work horse fighters of the WWII but you seem to be ok with that?

Personally, I think a late war German bomber would be a welcome addition although not nearly as crucial as the likes of Pe-2 and Ki-43.

Ju-88S: My personal favorite. It was the true Schnellbomber which Ju-88 was supposed to be from the start before RLM issued a host of weight adding requirements for the design which slowed it down.

Ju-188A: Beautiful bomber, also my favorite. While the 20mm in the turret is nice, having it in the tail like the He-177 is a far bigger deterrent.

He-177A-5: Would perform well in the LWMA which IMO is kind of the point of a late war German bomber as late war German bomber campaigns don't have much Event-potential IMO.

Do-217: Effective bomber but the one I'd like to see the least of these four as it has the looks that only a mother can love.

[Denniss]

http://www.airpages.ru/eng/lw/do217.shtml

http://www.wwiivehicles.com/germany/aircraft/bomber/dornier-do-217.asp

My go-to source for GVs, and very accurate data regarding vehicles. Have seen nothing to indicate factual errors.

http://ww2db.com/aircraft_spec.php?aircraft_model_id=23

I had some book sources too, but they're likely still in some box from our move. If you insist on being dumb,  I'll go figure them out when I find the time.

Cough - BMW 801 was a 14-cylinder engine, the Do 217 never got the 801G-2 with 1700PS, even the K was powered by the 801L with 1560PS. Major errors in "good" sources ?!?
550 km/h are not that impossible for a Do 217 but only for a 217M after dropping the bombs. 217E was at ~515 km/h, 217K might have been a tad faster from improved aerodymics.

[jag88]

I mean lanc loads at medium speeds, or B-24 loads at high speed. I've put 6 years into the game,  the first two as a bomber junkie. Basically,  I know what I'm talking about. 300mph+ is high speeds for a bomber at anything but very high altitude. 340 is damn near untouchable, rendering any lack of defense a negligible weakness,  unless you are flying it.

Wow, did I touch a nerve?

Thats is what you get when you ask people top provide sources I guess...

I can assume from your idiotic rants about speed being unimportant and firepower being paramount, you are neither smart or a good shot.

Awww, I did hurt your feelings... I said a loaded heavy is going to be slow anyways, and you need some defensive deterrent otherwise people will chase you for 2 sectors in order to get a free kill on a badly defended bomber, it is a different matter if they have to chase you and then fight you as well.  I have to be a good shot, I have BB guns as defense in the 88.

Who says heavies have to carry 4t+? Following that, the B-17 is a medium. Who cares if it has 2 engines if it carries 8.8k of ord, and is just as survivable? I certainly don't.

Offensive load is one way to classify them, and since early WW2 there were several mediums that could carry 3t loads, it was nothing extraordinary, that is why I expect 4t+ from a heavy and you had them from early on with the Manchester/Lanc, Greif, Pe-8, and Halifax.

The fact is that the Do 217 is the best choice right now,  followed by a 188. The He 177 would be unrepresentative, useless in scenarios, and dominant in the MAs. You quite clearly just want it because you want a German B-24 that can turn into a lanc and keep the firepower.

Oh? You know want I want?  You are very funny in addition to psychic... or maybe psychotic.  I want a He-177 for what it was, a much maligned heavy bomber that did not get a chance to prove itself, it is an interesting design that had great potential but was hampered by unbelievable incompetence.  It is ugly as hell, but it has grown on me since I started to dig up info on it years ago.

http://www.airpages.ru/eng/lw/do217.shtml

http://www.wwiivehicles.com/germany/aircraft/bomber/dornier-do-217.asp

My go-to source for GVs, and very accurate data regarding vehicles. Have seen nothing to indicate factual errors.

http://ww2db.com/aircraft_spec.php?aircraft_model_id=23

I had some book sources too, but they're likely still in some box from our move. If you insist on being dumb,  I'll go figure them out when I find the time.

Lol, finally you quote something!

Sadly you go and get it from some website that quotes those quick reference enciclopedias that are usually full of errors or lack any form of context.

What good is speed without height and weight?

Griehl, in a book ABOUT the Do-217 indicates 510-520kph for the 217K1 at 12,7t, that is with barely a 3t payload and 4t below max weight and therefore without any external loads, from there speed will only go down as you add weight and external stores.  Nowarra indicates 528 kph for the M1, which matched Brown's test flight of the type.  Price records the same 528kph indicating that these are RLM values which are different form Dorniers which I believe is an interesting hint about the source for some of the wild numbers you can find, the same thing happens with the He-177, Heinkel claims 550kph at Gm, but RLM numbers put it at 490kph Gm, and I always rather take the user numbers rather than the seller's, they tend to be more honest or at least more representative of actual operational use.

Or maybe is just the top speed when light, as always, context is everything.

The M1 may be faster when light AFTER dropping its bombload, but loaded it would be nowhere near what you so ignorantly claim.

I would love to see the M1 in game, limited to internal stores it should be a difficult target to intercept and gives hope to an eventual Fritz-X perk option, but I rather get the more powerful Greif first.

[jag88]

Ju-88S: My personal favorite. It was the true Schnellbomber which Ju-88 was supposed to be from the start before RLM issued a host of weight adding requirements for the design which slowed it down.

Who wouldnt want 27 mins of WEP for 610kph?  

Shame about the load thou...

[Karnak]

For example, Ki-84, which you advocated to be added to the game, had really bad engine problems throughout its service in the war and sees heavier use in the LWMA than many work horse fighters of the WWII but you seem to be ok with that?

I'd have agreed with that position had the Ki-84 had any chance of supplanting the P-51, Spitfire, Bf109 and others.  The He177A-5 has a good shot at supplanting the Lancaster at the least, and potentially the B-24J and maybe even the B-17G as well.

On the other hand, if Jag88 is correct in his assessment of how the He177A-5 would be in AH, then the Do217 or Ju188 would actually be superior in AH.

[Megalodon]

I would love to have it give it a medium perk and add all the things and options it was capable of. Also lets remember this is a 4 engine bomber 2 engines are coupled into 1 prop?

With 98% or more of all the planes and tanks spending their time in the MA what difference does it make what options are on the planes or tanks?

You have 51's on 51, tanks shooting planes with their main guns, lancastukas, 163 low alt fighter rockets, 262 racing through furbals.... Why does it matter what options are on the planes the more the more fun......... Simple!

In the events arenas you simple turn the options off . Like in the case of the BF-109F4 for the events the gondolas or the bomb could of simply been turned off by the scenario planner! Their was no reason to remove them for MA use...Period!

Adding options in the MA is good and more fun for all of us if you don't want to use them ....Don't!


Any way if I was Pyro I would not do the He-177 if I did not get to, at least, do the Hs293!





















 

[jag88]

I would love to have it give it a medium perk and add all the things and options it was capable of. Also lets remember this is a 4 engine bomber 2 engines are coupled into 1 prop?

With 98% or more of all the planes and tanks spending their time in the MA what difference does it make what options are on the planes or tanks?

You have 51's on 51, tanks shooting planes with their main guns, lancastukas, 163 low alt fighter rockets, 262 racing through furbals.... Why does it matter what options are on the planes the more the more fun......... Simple!

In the events arenas you simple turn the options off . Like in the case of the BF-109F4 for the events the gondolas or the bomb could of simply been turned off by the scenario planner! Their was no reason to remove them for MA use...Period!

Adding options in the MA is good and more fun for all of us if you don't want to use them ....Don't!


Any way if I was Pyro I would not do the He-177 if I did not get to, at least, do the Hs293!

Well said!  Except for the perk part.

Although I am partial to the Fritz-X, BB buster and all.

Technically yes, but they were made into a single engine the DB610, they could not be disassembled AFAIK.

On the other hand, if Jag88 is correct in his assessment of how the He177A-5 would be in AH, then the Do217 or Ju188 would actually be superior in AH.

Dont believe me, read the RLM numbers I posted and make up your own mind.  The 217 and 188 wont be faster with external loads as the data from Rechlin showed, and that is the sole advantage they could possibly have on the 177.

[Megalodon]

Well said!  Except for the perk part.

Although I am partial to the Fritz-X, BB buster and all.

Technically yes, but they were made into a single engine the DB610, they could not be disassembled AFAIK.

Dont believe me, read the RLM numbers I posted and make up your own mind.  The 217 and 188 wont be faster with external loads as the data from Rechlin showed, and that is the sole advantage they could possibly have on the 177.

Yes it would be fun to try and glide the fritz x into a SB or the Hs293 into a carrier.

Technically they were DB606 a&b ?

[jag88]

Yes it would be fun to try and glide the fritz x into a SB or the Hs293 into a carrier.

Technically they were DB606 a&b ?

For the A3 yes (although some did receive 610s), for the 177A5 it was a DB610s (A & B), made of 2 DB605s (the DB606s used DB601s).

[Zacherof]

So everyone agrees it should be added!

[Tank-Ace]

Cough - BMW 801 was a 14-cylinder engine, the Do 217 never got the 801G-2 with 1700PS, even the K was powered by the 801L with 1560PS. Major errors in "good" sources ?!?
550 km/h are not that impossible for a Do 217 but only for a 217M after dropping the bombs. 217E was at ~515 km/h, 217K might have been a tad faster from improved aerodymics.

Specifically which source is that referring to? I'm not home and my phone is a pain to juggle multiple windows on.

And thanks,  I'll add an annotation in my sources folder.

Btw,  the 217 carried most of its ordnance internally. Wouldn't affect speed so much as acceleration and climb. Numbers are likely reflective of a clean 217M at ~17k.

[Tank-Ace]

Wow, did I touch a nerve?

Thats is what you get when you ask people top provide sources I guess...

a nerve? No. But I am getting tired of your ignorance as to what makes a good bomber in AH, and related request for a bomber that would be any where between dominant and games breaking... Especially when its completely unrepresentative of real life.

Awww, I did hurt your feelings... I said a loaded heavy is going to be slow anyways, and you need some defensive deterrent otherwise people will chase you for 2 sectors in order to get a free kill on a badly defended bomber, it is a different matter if they have to chase you and then fight you as well.  I have to be a good shot, I have BB guns as defense in the 88.

go fly bombers for two years and come back with some perspective.

The B-17 isn't so annoying because of it's guns. It's annoying because it soaks up damage better than any other bomber in the game, and is sufficiently fast to necessitate something like a K4 to intercept it when it's already at altitude. That means you typically have limited ammo, limited fuel, and STILL have limited time.

Offensive load is one way to classify them, and since early WW2 there were several mediums that could carry 3t loads, it was nothing extraordinary, that is why I expect 4t+ from a heavy and you had them from early on with the Manchester/Lanc, Greif, Pe-8, and Halifax.

3t is heavy - bomber ordnance.  A medium can carry 8.8k lbs.

The Ju88 isn't representative of most mediums, nor are many german bombers, since they didn't use heavies and thus designed their mediums accordingly.

In the MAs 217 > B-17 in the vast majority of cases.
Most sorties would benefit more from speed instead of more guns.

Oh? You know want I want?  You are very funny in addition to psychic... or maybe psychotic.  I want a He-177 for what it was, a much maligned heavy bomber that did not get a chance to prove itself, it is an interesting design that had great potential but was hampered by unbelievable incompetence.  It is ugly as hell, but it has grown on me since I started to dig up info on it years ago.

Regardless of how you spin it,  you want something that can compete with the B-17 and B-24 at their own game. Really no other bombers could do that, regardless of who built them.

As for your Wunderwaffe 177, it's engines were terribly unreliable, to the point that the combat ready aircraft were the rarities. The same thing happened to the king tiger,  and I'm not sure adding it was a good thing. In fact I'm almost certain it has hurt the GV game.

Lol, finally you quote something!

Sadly you go and get it from some website that quotes those quick reference enciclopedias that are usually full of errors or lack any form of context.

What good is speed without height and weight?

As I said, my hard copy books are in storage unless they're just gone.

Also, weight doesn't affect speed to any great degree. Its drag and thrust that affect speed for the most part. Look at the P-51 vs the Spitfire. Same engine, completely different performance,  and the slower one is actually lighter. Ta-152 is faster than the Tempest despite being slightly heavier IIRC, and having a weaker engine.

Ju-88A vs Ju88S.

[LCADolby]

Pics of the c-pit?