He177 ?

[MiloMorai]

Just out of curiousity LOL... how many lancs were shot down?

Of the total of 7,377 Lancasters built (430 of them in Canada), 3,932 were lost in action. 53.3% in combat with the Reich!
SOURCE:
http://www.bombercommandmuseum.ca/lancbomber.html <--- imagine that, A SOURCE! WOWZERS!
And its not wikipedia! and it also says RAF got pwnt! hahaha

Im sure everything from bomb making material, the metals the lancs were made out of, the fuel in their tanks, even the co-pilots lunch was brought over from America...
Imagine if the 30,000 B17's and B24's werent on the scene?

Don't judge the He-177 by the status of the war!
The He-177 was a neato plane and we luft______ <-- (write whatever you want there), would like it added!
Danke sehr schone!

LW bomber losses:
Jan 44 loss rate was 7.8%
Feb - 5.2%
March - 8.3%
April - 8.7%

For comparison, RAF BC losses for the same months:
Jan 44 loss rate was 5.6%
in Feb - 5.2%
in March - 3.6%
in April - 2.6%

[Karnak]

LW bomber losses:
Jan 44 loss rate was 7.8%
Feb - 5.2%
March - 8.3%
April - 8.7%

For comparison, RAF BC losses for the same months:
Jan 44 loss rate was 5.6%
in Feb - 5.2%
in March - 3.6%
in April - 2.6%

That is what I mean when he compares apples to elephants.  He posts the Lancaster loss total for the entire hard campaign from 1942 through the end and expects it to be a direct comparison with Luftwaffe losses during a brief period in 1944 during which the Luftwaffe bombers are only in British airspace for a short period and are so close to German controlled air space that they can dive for home at 400mph.  If a Lancaster tried to dive for home at 400mph after bombing Berlin it would crash in Germany itself.  Lancasters, and all other Allied bombers, had to spend hours in German controlled air space each sortie.

[Tank-Ace]

jag88,

You are not misrepresenting the state of the He177A-5 to the extent that Franz is, but you are misrepresenting it.

Lets put it this way, during the Battle of Britain the RAF was forced to put pilots with only 10 hours into Spitfires and Hurricanes and they did not begin to approach a 50% abort rate due to mechanical problems.  Likewise, the Luftwaffe put such pilots into late war Bf109s and Fw190s and, while I don't have the numbers, I'd be shocked if they were anything like 50%.  You can't hand wave that abort rate during the mini-blitz by saying it was all due to green crews.  If the machine is that dependent on experienced crew then it isn't ready for general deployment and use.

IIRC, abort rate was around 28%.

[Karnak]

IIRC, abort rate was around 28%.

That is a lot better than 50+%, but still extremely high.

[MiloMorai]

during the Battle of Britain the RAF was forced to put pilots with only 10 hours into Spitfires and Hurricanes

They had more than 10 hours of flight time. It would be 10 hours in a Spitfire/Hurricane.

[Karnak]

They had more than 10 hours of flight time. It would be 10 hours in a Spitfire/Hurricane.

Yes, that is what I meant.  The same is true of jag88's "Only 15 hours" He177 crews.

[Tank-Ace]

That is a lot better than 50+%, but still extremely high.

Bear in mind steel quality had gone to hell by '44. Armor plate on tanks, one of the most critical areas steel is used, would crack and shatter if struck by heavy shell hits.

Add in a weak supply chain, few support units, and untrained personelle, and it's a miracle the rate wasn't in the 40% range.

[lyric1]

On line book.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/118652873/Price-A-2004-He-177-Greif-The-Luftwaffe-s-Lighter-International-Air-Power-Review-Vol-11

[Full Metal Jug]

How about one of these?!



HS-129 MOFOS!  

[Karnak]

How about one of these?!

(Image removed from quote.)

HS-129 MOFOS!  

I see a free kill.

[Full Metal Jug]

You never even knew about the plane. If you knew more about it... you'd think otherwise! 

[Karnak]

You never even knew about the plane. If you knew more about it... you'd think otherwise!  

Actually it is because I do know about it that I see a free kill.  Overweight and powered by two ~750hp French Gnome-Rhone engines.  Slow and ungainly.

Free kill.

[Megalodon]

How about one of these?!

(Image removed from quote.)

HS-129 MOFOS!  

Here
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,344358.0.html

[GScholz]

Karnak, stop being an ass.

[Franz Von Werra]

He-177: Dogfighter?
Super size He-177 having only two engine nacels, clean lines, 'bird shape', and super duper wing area... without bombs - I bet it glides, turns, holds E in corners, roll rate too, climb rate?  It looks like it could dogfight! And if its airframe was anything like a divebomber at all, then it probably held together better than most...

From a vulched field with fighter hangars down: Stuka: can't up because ordinance is usually down. Ju-88s: no bombs, 50 fuel (25 runs out too fast), will actually dogfight ok some victories, nimble, but weakest weapon load out in game, of course try to ram enemy fighters too though LOL!  Imagine an He-177, with 2x20mm and 6x13mm amo, upping from the bomber hangar! If perked, this wouldnt be a good idea...

Hs-129 vmax 253, is the original 1945 version of the current A-10 thunderbolt II, in service, Vmax = 439, and its  Vnever exceed for 518... 
Could an HS-129 turn like an A-10?  <-- is the question.