March FSO: The Last Battle of Kharkov - August 1943

[Bino]

The March FSO, "The Last Battle of Kharkov - August 1943", is posted on the AH Events web site:

    http://www.ahevents.org/fso-current-next-event.html

Squad CO's, please update your side and ride preferences.

[Stampf]

III./JG11 - updated.

[Krusty]

Problem with the write-up:

"5.) 110G-2 30mm MK-108 cannon and Wfr.Gr.21 rockets are disabled."

The 30mm Mk108s are not something you can disable. They are the default weapon configuration and present in all other loadouts. These are the internal top nose guns.

Perhaps you're thinking of the gunpod option, which is an additional 2x20mm guns?

[68Wooley]

What's the intention of scoring double negative points for friendly-fire shoot-downs?

With the way kills are assigned to users, this could be problematic. For example, you hit a friendly with an errant 50 cal. doing little or no damage. Same pilot subsequently collides with a bad guy. Both pilots are killed. If the bad guy dies first, you'll be assigned the kill. Seems harsh.

What do other think?

[Krusty]

I agree there. There is a difference between "killing" and "being awarded the kill but not killing" ... Unless the server can track the difference it isn't fair.

I spray a guy with a single .303 30 minutes in, and he crashes on landing 2 hours later but I get penalized? Just a fictional example, but it happens. It's happened before with bomber losses, too. One bomber pings another, and lost drones later or safe ditches due to lost oil, etc, add up to a number of friendly fire incidents.

[Bino]

Based on recent questions and discussions in this forum, it seemed like a good opportunity to see if penalizing those few incidents (instead of simply not scoring the kills) would ultimately make any real difference.  Friendly fire normally only accounts for perhaps as many as three planes on each side in the FSO logs that I've examined.

As for the 30mm on the Bf-110, I will ask the Setup CMs if they have access to configuring that weapon option.

[STXAce8]

Why would you get rid of the taters?

[Krusty]

Honestly, you can't:

http://www.hitechcreations.com/wiki/index.php/Bf_110G-2

There are other options, but 30mm is always present. As to why they're disabled: The 30mm guns weren't available in numbers until 1944. Until then, 110Gs removed the 7mm nose guns and carried the twin gunpods, making a platform that had 4x20mm and no 7mm or 30mm. These were often used against bombers, mainly. The 7mm were retained in many 110Gs that engaged in ground attack and strafing, where the thousnds of rounds of ammo wreaked havoc on unprotected ground targets. For AH use, though, these would be pretty weak.

Because of the date of this setup, I think they wanted to limit the 30mm firepower the 110s might have, so they're not overpowered.

[perdue3]

This is a ridiculous rule and here is why:

Per the old scoring, if I shoot down Sukov (my faithful XO and squaddie) I obviously am not credited with an enemy kill. However the Allies receive 5 points for his loss (not to mention the loss of a potential 5 points for the Axis for a landing). So in that situation the Axis get 0 points (no chance at a 5 pt bonus) and Allies get 5 points. I get an earful from my XO.

In the new system, I shoot down Sukov (my faithful XO and squaddie) I obviously am not crdited with an enemy kill. However the Allies receive 5 points for his loss (not to mention the loss of a potential 5 points for a landing). Axis loses 10 points because I killed Sukov. So the end result is Allies 5 points, Axis -10 points and perdweeb gets an earful from Sukov.


Wrap up:

Old way: Axis 0 (no chance at 5 pt. landing bonus); Allies 5

New way: Axis -10 (no chance at 5 pt. landing bonus); Allies 5



My point is that shooting a friendly down is penalty enough in itself without the points penalty. Not only have I given the enemy a free 5 points, guaranteed the Axis of not receiving a 5 point bonus, and shot down my friend and ended his night early but I have also taken a friendly out of a sure to be hard fought battle that finds the Axis in desperate need of numbers of fighters on fighters.


That is the fighter aspect, the situation where it would most likely be relevant amongst my ranks in Kommando Nowotny. It happens more often in bombers. I know there have been multiple times where KN gets 7 kills in Ju 88's, 3 of them being friendly Ju 88's.

So let us say that I shoot down one of Sukov's drones purely on accident obviously. In the old system we have given the enemy 15 points, (if on bomb run) lost ordnance on the target, and lost the possibility of a 5 point landing bonus for that bomber. Not to mention I took Sukov's defense down a bit by killing one of his bombers.

In the new system we have given the enemy 15 points, lost 30 points for a friendly accidental bomber kill, possibly took ordnance off the target, reduced Sukov's chances of survival, and guaranteed the loss of a 5 point landing bonus for that bomber.

Bomber wrap up (using this month's point system):

Old way: Axis 0 (no chance at 5 pt. landing bonus); Allies 15

New way: Axis -30 (no chance at 5 pt. landing bonus); Allies 15



This friendly fire system could be a real game changer. We have all seen the FSO's that came down to less than 100 points. I have shown you the difference in points for both the new and old systems. Keep in mind I have used 1 plane being shot down by friendly fire. Not 2, 3, or 5; ONE. One bomber is a 45 (maybe 50) point swing. One bomber is a 45 (maybe 50) point swing. One last time, ONE BOMBER IS A 45 (MAYBE 50) POINT SWING.

Remove that rule please. As I said there are multiple hidden, if you will, penalties associated with friendly fire. There is absolutely no need for a point penalty also.

[nooby52]

I promise to aim better.

[kilo2]

I have discoed with a couple BBs in my plane from a friendly. The friendly received a kill on my bomber.

I don't see why any one should receive points for friendly fire.

[perdue3]

Great point Sukov.

Why should the enemy be rewarded for something they literally had nothing to do with?

If friendlies PURPOSELY shooting down friendlies was a real issue in FSO, by all means add the penalty. But that is not the case. I personally do not see how you can justify such a staggering penalty for accidents.

[Zoney]

This new rule will mean you must be more careful who you hit, like in real life.

It will be a BIG DEAL now if you shoot down your comrade, like in real life.

Communiccation between close proximity allies will have to be ON to help eliminate friendly fire deaths, like in real life.

FSO fighter ops will be more stressful with the new rule, like fighter ops were in real life.

FSO's.  I don't want them easy.  I don't want it to be relaxing.  I don't want it to be for "everybody" who just wants to fly and casually does not really care.

[kilo2]

This new rule will mean you must be more careful who you hit, like in real life.

It will be a BIG DEAL now if you shoot down your comrade, like in real life.

Communiccation between close proximity allies will have to be ON to help eliminate friendly fire deaths, like in real life.

FSO fighter ops will be more stressful with the new rule, like fighter ops were in real life.

FSO's.  I don't want them easy.  I don't want it to be relaxing.  I don't want it to be for "everybody" who just wants to fly and casually does not really care.

I hate to burst your bubble but this is a video game. Everyone knows in real life when the Germans had a case of fratricide the Russians received 5 points!

[Zoney]

Why should the enemy be rewarded for something they literally had nothing to do with?

The enemy ccertainly would have something to do with it.  They were there, in close proximity to your allies whom you should be careful not to shoot.  "It looks like I may hit a friendly if I fire", then hold your fire and wait for a cleaner shot.