damping setting to fly f4u

[lulu]

In past time I tried the 'trim solution' but I don't find benefit.

Mar told me that he flys with combat trim on so i think that the f4u's bouncing can be solved with
combat trim on too.


TY


 

[TequilaChaser]

In past time I tried the 'trim solution' but I don't find benefit.

Mar told me that he flys with combat trim on so i think that the f4u's bouncing can be solved with
combat trim on too.


TY


 

For most, that I have helped in the F4U series, I helped them by the method I described above ( as well as for a lot of other planes in the AH planeset )

symptoms you will experience using Combat Trim ( CT ) turned on while flying the F4U are

- your elevator trim will keep trimming to keep the nose level, as your speed decreases
- CT being used, will cause your nose to bounce UP, each notch of flaps that you lower
- in a slowing fight ( speed wise ) CT will cause you to try and steady your bore site on your / ahead of your opponent, hence what people refer to as Nose bounce

the only way I could even possibly think of being able to use CT ( Combat Trim ), is if one flys with their elevator scaling set to the slow swinging arc from 10% slider lower end to the 90% slider higher end of the arc. and even using this scaling, I have experienced users having "nose bounce" issues

This very subject of "nose bounce" has been discussed hundreds or more of times in this forum as well as other forums on this board.......

also, scaling , in my personal opinion, is for those who do not fly these flight sims with a sensitive touch on the controls, more for the ones who are hamfist-ed and jerky

one never wants to scale less than 100% across the top for ailerons, maybe a slight bit on rudder, and for elevators what they find to help them fly their best...

I personally think for it to be as close to real input to what they had in real life, one should have scaling enabled for every axis, and have the sliders at the top all the way across, from 10% input to 90% input ( equalling 100% input of control surfaces )

Hope This Helps

TC

[Orbitson]

For most, that I have helped in the F4U series, I helped them by the method I described above ( as well as for a lot of other planes in the AH planeset )

symptoms you will experience using Combat Trim ( CT ) turned on while flying the F4U are

- your elevator trim will keep trimming to keep the nose level, as your speed decreases
- CT being used, will cause your nose to bounce UP, each notch of flaps that you lower
- in a slowing fight ( speed wise ) CT will cause you to try and steady your bore site on your / ahead of your opponent, hence what people refer to as Nose bounce

the only way I could even possibly think of being able to use CT ( Combat Trim ), is if one flys with their elevator scaling set to the slow swinging arc from 10% slider lower end to the 90% slider higher end of the arc. and even using this scaling, I have experienced users having "nose bounce" issues

This very subject of "nose bounce" has been discussed hundreds or more of times in this forum as well as other forums on this board.......

also, scaling , in my personal opinion, is for those who do not fly these flight sims with a sensitive touch on the controls, more for the ones who are hamfist-ed and jerky

one never wants to scale less than 100% across the top for ailerons, maybe a slight bit on rudder, and for elevators what they find to help them fly their best...

I personally think for it to be as close to real input to what they had in real life, one should have scaling enabled for every axis, and have the sliders at the top all the way across, from 10% input to 90% input ( equalling 100% input of control surfaces )
Hope This Helps

TC

You lost me.  These instructions seem to be contradictary.  I'm enjoying this tread..did I miss something?

[morfiend]

You lost me.  These instructions seem to be contradictary.  I'm enjoying this tread..did I miss something?

  Hyde, what he means is to check the box to enable scaling and set all the sliders to the top. Or 100% input across the complete axis.  This I find is often too sensitve for those using a twist rudder stick so as with most things Your Milage May Vary.

  Having an oversensitive rudder,on a twist stick,can cause unwanted inputs when shooting,an easy test is to up a plane with central guns and plenty of ammo{P38} and straife the ground. Do you see a nice straight line of bullet impacts or do you see a sort od serpentine impact line?  If it's serpentined then your rudder is moving the nose back and forth.

  If the nose bounce isnt caused by the rudder then it could be the elevator axis. This is harder to test for but you can open the dot target command and shoot at the target,if you see the bullet pattern move up and down slightly,again you must use plenty of ammo,this is best done offline where you can increase to ammo count by a factor of 10.  If the elevator is causing the problem you will see a verticle line developing.

  With enough time and patients you can dial these unwanted input out with use of scaling slider,deadpan and some dampening.

  hope this helps and clears it up.

   

[TequilaChaser]

This I find is often too sensitve for those using a twist rudder stick so as with most things Your Milage May Vary.

  Having an oversensitive rudder,on a twist stick,can cause unwanted inputs when shooting,an easy test is to up a plane with central guns and plenty of ammo{P38} and strafe the ground. Do you see a nice straight line of bullet impacts or do you see a sort of serpentine impact line?  If it's serpentined then your rudder is moving the nose back and forth.

  If the nose bounce isn't caused by the rudder then it could be the elevator axis. This is harder to test for but you can open the dot target command and shoot at the target,if you see the bullet pattern move up and down slightly,again you must use plenty of ammo,this is best done offline where you can increase to ammo count by a factor of 10.  If the elevator is causing the problem you will see a vertical line developing.

  With enough time and patients you can dial these unwanted input out with use of scaling slider,deadpan and some dampening.

  hope this helps and clears it up.

    

Thanks morfiend,  for expanding on this, Sir... much appreciated


I got in a hurry, and skipped over , for those who use twisty stick controllers..... even using rudder pedals, I myself will use about a 1/4 inch up on the slider of Deadband, so I do not put in any unnecessary rudder input.  

( heh, unless I do what I did dueling SkyRock, and noticed/realized, I was so into the fight, I had full right rudder engaged 7 or 8 times throughout our 3 matches )


TC

[mtnman]

This is what works for me (flying with pedals).  It's the same setting TC is describing.



I use that same recipe for rudder and aileron.

Personally, I think scaling is a "crutch" for ham-fisted flying.  That isn't bad in itself, but I think that scaling will allow/force a flyer to be even more ham-fisted, and that's bad, IMO...  

With scaling, moving the stick say 10% right does not give 10" aileron, and moving it an additional 10% right will not give an additional 10% aileron...  It forces you to move the stick more, and quicker, to get the same effect as someone without scaling.

Worse yet, if you're giving a "little" right aileron, and now need a "little" left, you have to move the stick further (and faster) with scaling than without.  Essentially, you're teaching/forcing yourself to fly ham-fisted, because your scaling is allowing/requiring it.

If you're struggling to overcome nose-bounce with a scaled stick, I cannot conceive of a much more effective method to teach being ham-fisted.

Personally, I'd toss a stick out if it required me to scale, rather than scale to allow use of the stick, but that's just my opinion.

The F4U itself does not require scaling.  It's the pilot and stick that may be in question.

I also trim for level at @ 330mph.  I fly with CT off by default, but will click it on for just general flyin' around.  I like it off when I fight, land, or play with flaps.

[FLS]

I look at scaling a little differently Mtnman. Scaling allows a 6 inch stick to respond near the center like a 30 inch stick. It allows more precise movement near the center. The problem, and here I expect we agree, is that as you move away from the center you get more control movement for the same stick movement and the amount of increased control response changes with elevator trim. In other words, you may have fine precise scaled control at the edge of stalling or you could have normal 1/1 movement at the edge of stalling just by changing elevator trim and flying the stall with the stick in a different position. Unless you trim very consistently you won't have consistent stick/ control response. I agree that unscaled is better for a consistent control response but I find that scaling rudder helps me because I need finer control near the center. I used to scale my pitch axis but not the roll axis.  Now I just use a stick extension so I get the finer control of scaling with the consistent response of no scaling.



I still say there's no need to enable scaling if you set them all to the top. 

[mtnman]

I look at scaling a little differently Mtnman. Scaling allows a 6 inch stick to respond near the center like a 30 inch stick. It allows more precise movement near the center. The problem, and here I expect we agree, is that as you move away from the center you get more control movement for the same stick movement and the amount of increased control response changes with elevator trim. In other words, you may have fine precise scaled control at the edge of stalling or you could have normal 1/1 movement at the edge of stalling just by changing elevator trim and flying the stall with the stick in a different position. Unless you trim very consistently you won't have consistent stick/ control response. I agree that unscaled is better for a consistent control response but I find that scaling rudder helps me because I need finer control near the center. I used to scale my pitch axis but not the roll axis.  Now I just use a stick extension so I get the finer control of scaling with the consistent response of no scaling.



I still say there's no need to enable scaling if you set them all to the top. 

Good points, and I know there are other methods and opinions out there...

However, I'm lost on the 6" stick acting like a 30" stick by scaling?  I would think it would act the opposite of what you describe?

A non-scaled 6" stick moving 1" is like a 30" stick moving 5"?  A scaled 6" stick would require more movement for the same effect?  I'm having trouble visualizing drastic stick movement equating to fine control?

I'm also envisioning the deflection angle of the stick (more-so than the distance moved) when I fly.  Small deflection of the small stick correlates to a small deflection of the large stick.  Scaling would require drastic deflection to equate to small deflection?  That would be (and was, when I tried scaling) very counter-intuitive to me.

I grew up flying RC planes (way before computer radios), and learned to fly with a delicate touch.  A lot of times it almost seems to be more "thought" or pressure than actual stick movement.  I'm sure that still plays into my control use in AH.

[FLS]

The scale is only that great near the center of movement where the scaling is 10% - 20%.  That finer control is like using a longer stick. You don't get the fine control along with the drastic movement. Those would be separate. Where you are seeing drastic movement to match an unscaled stick I'm seeing an option of small movements the unscaled stick can't match.

 I agree that an unscaled stick is a better choice for consistent response and you probably have that ingrained from RC flying.

[mtnman]

Ha!  I think we're following each other around the boards!

I see what you mean.

[Orbitson]

I personally, prefer to get the F4U series planes up to a level flight speed of between 325 IAS to 335 IAS ( white needle ) and leave it manually trimmed for this speed in level flight....

this can be achieved though in a very easy fashion, to do so, just hit Combat Trim ( Ctrl X ) to switch it on and then when you decide to engage in a fight, nose down with CT on, and once you reach the above speed ( 325/335 IAS ) hit Ctrl X ( Combat Trim ) to turn it off...... just be sure to not be giving any stick input be in a straight wings level shallow dive to obtain the speed and turn CT off..... if you are giving stick input it will throw your trim settings off kilter...

now, once you are trimmed to this speed setting, you can engage, get slower, lower any number of notches of flaps and you will not experience nose bounce ....... if you do then you are having trouble with your Controllers ( joystick / HOTAS ) themselves......
Trimmed in the way I described will allow you to use a gentle pull / constant pull to bring your boresite / piper  on target and hold it steady to fire when under a G load........ if you have to... it is prefered to be unloaded of Gs when you fire at your opponent, but it isn't always that easy in an angles fight, like it is while BnZing......

also, you can set your trim and then use the trim set dot command, to quickly obtain this setting when you are about to engage..

TC

I tested this last night in the 1-A Hog and it does eliminate the nose bounce problem.

Thanks TC for the advice.

[TequilaChaser]

I tested this last night in the 1-A Hog and it does eliminate the nose bounce problem.

Thanks TC for the advice.

Anytime I can be of help, sir, just ask or shoot me a pm...

Glad I could help!   I'm currently reviewing some ah community member "training videos", to critique at their request... but am here to help in any way I possibly can

TC

[SIK1]

What's the difference of not enabling scaling, and enabling scaling with all the sliders at 100%?

 
Sik

[TequilaChaser]

What's the difference of not enabling scaling, and enabling scaling with all the sliders at 100%?

 
Sik

Heya Sik1,
There should be no difference, one would think....  But personally I myself enable each axis and once you click/check the enabled box, you will notice the sliders will jump to the default scaled settings.
Then I move all sliders all the way up 100% across the top, this way I know without a doubt, my controller axis are scaled to 100% or saying it another way I am getting a 1:1 ratio or full real input...

Yes, with no scaling enabled, it shows all sliders at the top, but it does not let me know that my controllers are "scaled" to 100%, like it does with the scaling enabled...

I have never tested if there is any difference or not between the two or not, I just prefer to do my controllers as shown in Mtnman's picture he posted above...

Hope this helps

TC

[Warmongo]

I wanted to add that the Saitek X-52 and X-52 Pro do not have a real linear response unless you do the "magnet mod". I noticed that when I used it. I have both plus also have the TM Cougar, TM Cougar and CH FighterStick. I like the linear response of the Warthog but it's too stiff for my taste after hours of flying and I am using CH now. I like my sliders all the way up for ailerons but I scale my elevators otherwise I blackout all the time. Also scale the rudders with a generous dead band otherwise tend to use too much rudder.  Nose bounce goes away when you disable combat trim. Trim up or down as needed. My two cents but I am only a weekend warrior...:-(.