Author Topic: Hurricane  (Read 1802 times)

Offline Bruv119

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Re: Hurricane
« Reply #15 on: February 24, 2013, 08:15:42 AM »
hurri 2 d wing popped off when I was a little eager beaver to pop a tank turret.  or rather prevent an issue with the accelerating ground mass.   

Just have to be smooth and not yank the stick with excess energy. 
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Offline mthrockmor

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Re: Hurricane
« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2013, 08:37:59 AM »
I'm not climbing into the discussion over 'flutter' and wingnuts though it highlights the amazing piece of engineering that these planes are that something so simple as an improper wingnut could cause a plane to crash. 12 months prior to any of these amazing birds rolling off an assembly line they were nothing more than piles of ore freshly dug out of the ground.

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Offline Mace2004

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Re: Hurricane
« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2013, 09:02:19 AM »
In Ira Jones book Tiger Squadron, he refers to Hurri 1's routinely diving to 500mph and Spit 1's exceeding 550. He doesnt mention bits dropping off. :headscratch:
He doesn't then mention them going to 550 and 600 respectively, correct?  The numbers he quotes might be the numbers because pilots don't like suicide and to go above those numbers would result in bits dropping off or maybe it's just because a few people that did it and survived told their story while the guys that didn't survive, well, didn't.  If someone wants to make the argument that the speeds at which failures occur in AH are too low then that's fine, I have no proof or documentation about either of these aircraft regarding what their specified red-line speeds (sometimes called placarded limits) were and even if we did, the red-line speed isn't a "wall."  Any posted limit has some safety margin built in so it's quite possible, and in war time probable, that many of these limits were routinely violated.  If you know you're going to die are you really going to worry about a placarded limit whether it be speed, G or engine power?  Be kinda dumb to die by being shot out of the air but being on the "right" side of limits.  

Also, assuming these speeds are above redline (and, like I said, that's a comfortable assumption) you have to conclude that at least some were successful it doing so to the speeds you mention but then you're not going to hear much from the guys that were unsuccessful.  Of the ones that were unsuccessful, I don't know if they were unsuccessful because of flutter or loss of control or over-G while trying to pull out, or they blew their engines up by overspeeding them up but the probability of something bad happening goes way up the faster you go.  For a sim like AH, I don't know what the flight model uses for red line but I'd guess that there is some documented evidence of what the placarded limit was to establish it.  Maybe in the new Hurricane model it's too low, or, maybe the new model is based on better info than originally used.  I don't know what info HTC has but anecdotal evidence is difficult to use as established "fact" because, as I mentioned, you only hear from the guys that did it and survived and also there is the fact that exaggeration is not unknown in the fighter community.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2013, 09:10:34 AM by Mace2004 »
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Offline Karnak

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Re: Hurricane
« Reply #18 on: February 24, 2013, 10:12:07 AM »
The one that doesn't make sense to me is the Mossie VI and Mossie XVI.  They have the same wing (the improved, stronger wing was introduced with the Mk VI) and tail, but the Mk VI loses control surfaces and the Mk XVI doesn't.
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Offline nrshida

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Re: Hurricane
« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2013, 10:15:53 AM »
I'm not climbing into the discussion over 'flutter' and wingnuts

Actually I was implying Krusty was the wingnut.  :old:



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Offline WW1965

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Re: Hurricane
« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2013, 11:09:19 AM »
I'm not climbing into the discussion over 'flutter' and wingnuts though it highlights the amazing piece of engineering that these planes are that something so simple as an improper wingnut could cause a plane to crash. 12 months prior to any of these amazing birds rolling off an assembly line they were nothing more than piles of ore freshly dug out of the ground.

Amazing human creations!

These forums need a '+' or a '-' feature... then watch out.. these technical discussions will turn into the 'WWE'..
But yes that why I have loved planes from as far back as I can remember..

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Offline Stang

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Re: Hurricane
« Reply #21 on: February 24, 2013, 11:45:36 AM »
The Krusty's are strong in this thread.

Offline SmokinLoon

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Re: Hurricane
« Reply #22 on: February 24, 2013, 12:02:58 PM »
I cant vouch for the merits in which HTC chooses if and when control surfaces bust off, but I too think it seems a bit odd that some aircraft are so fragile.  The Hurricanes are one of them.  I still think that canvass control surfaces would not able able to handle the same stress as metal control surfaces, but like most others here I have no proof and am only speculating. 

I know when I see debates about the abilities of the P38, I just open up "Fork Tailed Devil: The P38", by Martin Caidin.  While it doesn't have all of the exact specifics, having testimony from the pilots who flew it in combat AND hard stats to reference means something.  If there are similar books out there on the Hurricane I would hope HTC would reference them as well and if there are multiple Hurricane pilots performing X maneuver and Y speed, and there are RAF operations manuals (pilot guides, etc), saying it preferred or OK to perform X maneuver up to Y speed, etc, then lets hope HTC models it in their AH Hurricane.  Even with all the advanced flight modeling programming available, some things need to addressed outside of whatever the software says it "needs" to be. If the Hurricane was able to safely dive and Y speed and do it repeatedly in the real deal, then lets hope HTC will at least review their programming. 

Same goes for the B25.  I don't think there is a plane in AH that has as feeble elevators and ailerons as the B25.
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Offline zack1234

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Re: Hurricane
« Reply #23 on: February 25, 2013, 01:25:40 AM »
The Hurricane mkII is very good :old:

Bits only fall off it if you don't fly it properly :old:

I really like the seconds finger on the clock :old:
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Offline TeeArr

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Re: Hurricane
« Reply #24 on: February 25, 2013, 10:36:34 AM »
I have been playing this game for approximately 12 years.  Never have I had a Hurricane, in a controlled dive; (Throttle Idle, control surfaces neutral, 320 KIAS) had control surfaces depart the aircraft.  I have had an aircraft shed it's main planes (wings) during an aggressive dive recovery, but never until the past few weeks had a Hurricane jettison it's control surfaces.  The first two times it was just the elevators, the first time I was almost able to land after recovering from the dive.  The second time I augured.  The third time, I watched as (in this order) the ailerons departed simultaneously, followed quickly by the elevators both simultaneously, and then the rudder. Snap!...Snap!, snap!  From everything I have read about the Hurri, it was an extremely strong bird with it's massively wooden stringer ed empanage.  It wasn't  a fast aircraft, but even 400 - 450KIAS is not an unreasonable speed or stress for that plane to handle.

Offline Krusty

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Re: Hurricane
« Reply #25 on: February 25, 2013, 03:25:17 PM »
Shida, go back to hiding under your rock. It's where you belong.

Mace, no. There's a massive difference between "flutter" lossening locknuts which were old and should not have been used in the first place, to losing the entire flight surface.

The flight controls had LARGE mounting points. Large pins fited into the ribs of the flight surfaces (wings, tail, stabs, etc). There are reports that even when shot away and with the control surface fluttering wildly, planes have made it back safely. One Flying Tiger P-40 escorting B-24s was set upon by a Ki-43. It shredded his rudder control links, and the rudder, and the entire thing was flapping back and forth violently as he withstood a heavy onslaught of enemy fire. After being cleared by a wingman he flew home, rudder fluttering back and forth the entire time. He made it back perfectly safe.

You're trying to imply flutter is lethal, when it is not. Flutter causes a flight surface to flip up and down rapidly. When the surface is fixed in place, these translate into vibrations along the mounting points and the control arms or cables. It makes it harder for a pilot to hold the stick steady, for example. In Leeward's case, the flutter on the trim tab induced vibrations into the control arm, which became detached because of poor maintenance on the point of attachment. Once detached, the trim tab flapped up and down wildly (like a limp flag being whipped back and forth in a massive wind). The trim tab then failed, because it is only held onto the elevator by a handful of screws.

What brought down Leeward's P-51 wasn't the flutter on the trim tab. He had nose-down trim apparently to keep himself in his very high speed dive. To ease stick pressure the trim tab was deflecting the elevator down. As soon as the trim pressure was gone, the pressure of the airflow over the elevator slammed it back to "neutral" trim instantly. This was like jamming the stick back with hundreds of pounds of stick force in a split second. Leeward experienced 17Gs of pressure and blacked out instantly also.

Meanwhile flutter was only what removed a poorly maintained trimtab that lost its control arm. Had that control arm been properly in place, the tab and the elevator and ALL control surfaces would still have encountered flutter. It would have been inconsequential.

Don't confuse that with your mythical link between flutter and ripping off entire control surfaces in aces high. Flutter is there, but control surfaces are strong enough to survive with it.


P.S. The force of the pitch-up On Leeward was so bad that it bent the plane's frame behind the wing trailing edge attachment point.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2013, 03:28:20 PM by Krusty »

Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Hurricane
« Reply #26 on: February 25, 2013, 05:41:56 PM »
Krusty you do know that Mace is a former F-14 fighter jock and test pilot, right?  Just wanted to give you a heads up before you make yourself look even more silly.

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Offline danny76

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Re: Hurricane
« Reply #27 on: February 25, 2013, 05:47:05 PM »
Krusty you do know that Mace is a former F-14 fighter jock and test pilot, right?  Just wanted to give you a heads up before you make yourself look even more silly.

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Offline Stang

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Re: Hurricane
« Reply #28 on: February 25, 2013, 08:28:28 PM »
Matt Garth didn't survive flutter at the end of Midway trying to land on the Enterprise...

 :bolt:

Offline Krusty

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Re: Hurricane
« Reply #29 on: February 25, 2013, 09:30:00 PM »
Thanks Ack-Ack, I was aware. His direct equation of flutter effect to ripping control surfaces off of HTCs variant of the Hurricane is so far off as to show he's making a poor joke or doesn't know much about WW2 aircraft. He may be a great F-14 pilot, and I won't dare impugne his service, but from his comments he doesn't know much about WW2 aerodynamics.

I was honestly trying to enlighten him, and not to pick on him (if that was the feeling).