FSO is about who you know not what you know

[kilo2]

 its been acknowledged that the bigger squads are more valued

Where has that been stated?

[razmataz]

What is the definition of a biggie squad and what would be the point of splitting them up? Its Friday SQUAD Operations correct? My squaddies are my friends and I like flying with them. Don't know if {The GunFighters} are considered a big squad or not, but were not dividing up and flying in different area's. We normally have 12-15 guys on so we usually do divide into two smaller elements, but were still flying together. Otherwise we should change the name from Friday Squad Operation to Friday Group of Guys flying Operation.

We started as a small squad and sometimes it was rough at first. When your a 4-6 squad and your minimum is 2 the smaller squad needs to fly with a larger squad, not because a smaller squad doesn't have anything to offer. But it gives a smaller squad protection with having a few more numbers and the larger squads get a lift by having more numbers. Its a win win for both size squads. I believe it was Slipknot that said the key is "Comunication" before the event  works great and brings all squads big and small into a plan that all squads involved can be part of.
 
 As far as gettign assigned rides, well that's on the CIC. When ever I did CIC I always tried to give preference to the squads requested ride and give them what they asked for. Sometimes its just not possible cause of the event restrictions

The GunFightes did request Axis this month and we got Allies to answere the question if any squad that requested Axis didn't get it. We're kool with it and are having a blast so far.

Raz299

[hammer]

...that larger group assigns the targets to its members, which means we get mop up duties. which means we are tail end charlie, which means we are generally the first to die, as fodder....

Now you're talking group dynamics. I can't talk to any specific situation, but it still comes down the the "new guy" wanting to play quarterback as far as the larger squad is concerned. I get that. I don't see where any of the solutions talked about so far would solve that, but I understand that issue.

How about requesting that smaller squad COs have the opportunity to run mixed missions? It would require the cooperation of the larger group and, from an efficiency standpoint doesn't make a lot of sense, but that at least directly addresses a specific issue you have identified.

Regards,

Hammer

[hammer]

The GunFightes did request Axis this month and we got Allies to answere the question if any squad that requested Axis didn't get it. We're kool with it and are having a blast so far.

Thanks. So now my question is did vuduvee's squad request axis and get allies, or the other way around? I've been going on the assumption they requested allied and got axis, but apparently could be wrong (don't tell my wife!).

Regards,

Hammer

[WxMan]

...that larger group assigns the targets to its members, which means we get mop up duties. which means we are tail end charlie, which means we are generally the first to die, as fodder. and just so you know, in case you didnt see, in this thread its been ackowledged that smaller squads are not given lead, and that since we are small our contributions are insignificant.

Ah...now we are getting somewhere. I now see your point. It may be true that you feel undervalued if you feel you are basically clean up. However that is not an unimportant role, you get to make sure that the job is done.

I have several times assigned smaller squads as lead in a group during the many times I have been a CiC. I did it not only because of their reputation for getting a job done, but more importantly becuase they communicated well with others no matter what their role was. As I was exposed to this, it gave me more confidence in their abilities when I was a CiC. Perhaps this is a problem not only with your squadron, but of others also.

[cohofly]

1. requiring all squads to rotate between axis and allied, even if we only need a few from allied to go to axis every time

2 and 3 dont address the problem IMO either Hammer, however 1 has definite possibilties and appeals to my senses. Every squads enters the "race" with same starting line and with the same finish line. so to speak. Each month sides get split up. Sometimes you will be axis, sometimes you will be allied. Sometimes your in your comfort zone, and at other times your not, but you know that every other squad is in the same boat. Everybody gets to learn a new plane at some point during the year, your rivals last month are you escorts this month. Im a firm believer in community and inclusion, and have faith that this will lead to a stronger larger more vibrant  FSO community, instead of an exclusive unhappy one.

[Poppy]

Ah-so. Didn't realize that. Just change frames in my examples to months! 

Regards,

Hammer

Thank you Dot and hammer!!! Now this is progress that deals directly with a problem in case anyone over looked it. Hammer based what he has been saying on the wrong info. It's feasible now to have a fair rotation when the proper numbers/month/year are calculated. The possibility this issue can be taken care of is now available if anyone cares to solve one. Let's stick to the issues please, our exploits in game being posted here are a deflecting from this. Then deal with the next issue. Replace your roars with cures. Again Dot, thank you , with one comment you have cleared up a miscalculation that shows the way to a fix. Hammer, how does a rotation work out now? Should be fair  right? And it can be done without splitting up large squads too, yes? So the big squads know, I have no desire to see what your squads earned taken away or split up or anything like that; especially when it's clear now that a solution is available. I want it fair, that's all. I care that the big guys don't get shafted too. Maybe though because those big squads are so big they may wind up getting the duty more or as often as those of us flailing about that now. That would be as unfair as what's happening to the small squads. Strictly for the sake of rotation would it be fair to split up any squad? What can we do about this? This is what my focus is on now, so it's fair for anyone entering into FSO. We need to work on the solution, it's not right that we're split about this so lets get to a cure. What does HighTech have to say, anyone ask em? Can we get a bottom liner in on this debate and work this out with him before next scenario? He is the final word I believe so let's ask em

[hammer]

2 and 3 dont address the problem IMO either Hammer, however 1 has definite possibilties and appeals to my senses. Every squads enters the "race" with same starting line and with the same finish line. so to speak. Each month sides get split up. Sometimes you will be axis, sometimes you will be allied. Sometimes your in your comfort zone, and at other times your not, but you know that every other squad is in the same boat. Everybody gets to learn a new plane at some point during the year, your rivals last month are you escorts this month. Im a firm believer in community and inclusion, and have faith that this will lead to a stronger larger more vibrant  FSO community, instead of an exclusive unhappy one.

I'm still not sure what problem we are trying to solve. To me, the solution of random assignments of sides would only exacerbate any existing problem because you would constantly be flying with people you didn't know. I can't talk from the allied perspective, but I know from listening to our CO talk that he has a good feel for the other dedicated axis squads. While I agree taking that away would level the playing field, it levels it at the basement and never allows the community you mention to gain any cohesiveness because it is constantly being reshuffled. That solution is akin to telling all kids they have to go to a new school every time a new student comes in so that the new kid doesn't have to feel like the new kid.  

You mention people would "get to learn a new plane" without any consideration of whether people want to do so. I joined JG11 for the immersion of flying German planes with wingmen in German planes. That is what we do all the time both in FSO and in the main arena. After almost 18 years of playing Air Warrior and then Aces High, it added a new element to the game that has helped keep me interested.

I'm not saying that if the sides were skewed to axis and our squad was asked to go allied, I wouldn't do it because I would gladly do so. But I do so secure in the knowledge that, usually, axis squads get to stay axis. Is that fair to the squads that want to fly allies all the time? Sure it is. It's a choice made by those squads to request the side they know usually has to move some people to the other side. The only thing that needs to be fair is the rotation system for asking squads to change from the high number side to the low number side. Same thing with the axis side.

The gunfighters requested axis this last time and did not get it. I would expect them to get it next month if they asked for it again. If not, they would have the beginnings of an argument about fairness. We would then have to talk about squads dedicated to one side or another who ask to switch just because they think one side has a better plane set for that scenario or whatever (absolutely not saying this is what the Gunfighters did... just giving an example of considerations) and what was fair in that regard, but those are rules and precedents which could be laid out. Does a dedicated allied or axis squad have priority to stay axis or allied? Questions like that.

Bottom line, I guess, is that we would have to agree to disagree on how useful the forced rotation would be. My belief is it would ultimately drive more people away than it would attract.

Here's another possibility - why don't a few of the small squads join together for FSO purposes? Three or four 4 - 5 man squads who feel the same way could form a nice squadron with each of the elements acting as a division within the squadron. It might be more fun that way, too. Just a thought.

Regards,

Hammer

[hammer]

...Hammer, how does a rotation work out now? ...

You now have 5% of the population unhappy for the first 4 months, 75% unhappy for the next 4 months, and 45% unhappy for the last 4 months. That averages out to almost 1/2 the people unhappy all of the time. Not a good way to run an event!

Regards,

Hammer

[cohofly]

That solution is akin to telling all kids they have to go to a new school every time a new student comes in so that the new kid doesn't have to feel like the new kid.

This happens to smaller squads forced to switch from their intended side up to 4 times per year

You mention people would "get to learn a new plane" without any consideration of whether people want to do so. I joined JG11 for the immersion of flying German planes with wingmen in German planes.

Do you think that I or any other allied pilot at the time wants to learn how to fly the P39 the P40 the Hurri1, yet time after time you keep your usual ride.

The gunfighters requested axis this last time and did not get it.

We requested Allies, and got Axis so............ what gives here.

dedicated axis squads

I keep hearing this statement, unfortunately for the Allies as far as I have been able to tell there are no "dedicated Allied Squads" Im sure there would be if able. Its a luxery we dont have

[kilo2]

That solution is akin to telling all kids they have to go to a new school every time a new student comes in so that the new kid doesn't have to feel like the new kid.

This happens to smaller squads forced to switch from their intended side up to 4 times per year

You mention people would "get to learn a new plane" without any consideration of whether people want to do so. I joined JG11 for the immersion of flying German planes with wingmen in German planes.

Do you think that I or any other allied pilot at the time wants to learn how to fly the P39 the P40 the Hurri1, yet time after time you keep your usual ride.

The gunfighters requested axis this last time and did not get it.

We requested Allies, and got Axis so............ what gives here.

dedicated axis squads

I keep hearing this statement, unfortunately for the Allies as far as I have been able to tell there are no "dedicated Allied Squads" Im sure there would be if able. Its a luxery we dont have

Allied is a very popular side. Dedicated allied sides are there but since there are more of them they get put on axis more often. KN has flown allied a couple times once by choice and once because we had to.

If allied is popular on a certain setup then people may have to fly axis who would not want to. I am trying to think of an instance when axis is the popular side.

[Poppy]

I don't know the answer to this, so I'll ask. Has any squad ever had to be switched from the axis side because not enough people requested allied? I'm guessing the answer is no or, at the most, very rarely.

While I understand your frustration, I don't see how making a large axis squad change to allies solves anything. It would only mean that more people who wanted to fly allied would have to fly axis and do it more often. If the issue is that on the rare occasions you end up on the axis side you don't get the best axis rides, maybe it's because you don't fly axis enough to be known by the axis commanders. I mean, when the new kid shows up to your pickup game and says "hi, I want to be the quarterback", do you go with that or go with who you know?

If you don't want to switch sides and you want to become known so you can get better rides, do what Stampf did 7 years ago: dedicate your squad to the axis side and stay there. It's not always fun - the allies often have the advantage. He went through the same tribulations you are going through with ride assignments. However, he never had to change sides and has built his squad into one that is known for flying German fighters and flying them well.

Regards,

Hammer

Rotation is not about the dedicated squads, rides, assignments, personalities being happy or not or even about sides; it's about everyone rotating no matter what . . fairly. Through out this entire thread things are said dealing with everything around the problem. So what if a squad is big or small, your insisting that because a squad is big they should be exempt from what the other squads have to do. That's their problem theyre so big but they've made it ours, the little squads. ImaDot pointed out the mistake that the calculation was based on weekly instead of monthly for side assignments, we can do something about it now, but at the same time it's got to be fair for all squads so lets put together a rotation schedule that works for all of us. Hammer, you did the math but at an accelerated schedule. For the sake of getting to a fair rotation schedule would you mind doing a cursory schedule using the correct formula for it, not who's happy or not, then maybe we can understand that clearly enough and get to work on the next part of making it fair, not only for the small squads but the big ones too. As it is now it's only fair to the big squads. The guys in the big squads may not fully understand our frustration because they haven't had to repeatedly do what we're squeeking about. If we were to simply make a schedule then the big squads may be in our shoes and that's just as unfair to them as it is to us now, so let's stick to the issue. I think this is the end of the beginning because we're starting to get the meat of this problem after peeling away the layers of BS.  

[Dantoo]

go troll somewhere else cool guy.

Tsk tsk.  Troll?  Goodness me!  Simple statement of fact.

Thread probably stopped serving any useful purpose when the personal attacks started. The CMs have made a statement on the issue.  What more should happen?
FSO is a pleasant iteration of Aces High.  About once a year on average there is some kind of blow up.  People come and go all the time.

No point to this thread anymore

Your's Cooly  

[hammer]

That solution is akin to telling all kids they have to go to a new school every time a new student comes in so that the new kid doesn't have to feel like the new kid.

This happens to smaller squads forced to switch from their intended side up to 4 times per year

Yes and, because you don't like it, you want everybody else to do it, too. I understand the feeling that this would level the playing field but, as I said earlier, that level would be near the bottom rather than letting the FSO community continue to grow. Remember, you guys literally are the new guys. There are squads that have been doing this for much longer and they already have the community. Just like breaking into any new group, it takes time. And as for having to do it up to 4 times per year, the system you are advocating would increase that to at least 6 times per year, and possibly as many as 8 times a year for some small squads who had originally asked to be on the low number side to begin with! Again, my suggestion would be to combine with some other small squads.

You mention people would "get to learn a new plane" without any consideration of whether people want to do so. I joined JG11 for the immersion of flying German planes with wingmen in German planes.

Do you think that I or any other allied pilot at the time wants to learn how to fly the P39 the P40 the Hurri1, yet time after time you keep your usual ride.

Your squad chooses to request allies. Along with allies comes a wide variety of aircraft. It's a choice you make freely. You can also choose axis, or you can choose not to participate. We have the same choices. We choose to stay axis no matter what the circumstance unless asked to change sides. When a pacific plane set comes up, we (JG11) stay axis so more allied players can stay allied. You don't really think we'd rather fly zeroes than corsairs, do you?

The gunfighters requested axis this last time and did not get it.

We requested Allies, and got Axis so............ what gives here.

You'd have to ask one of the CMs on that one but my guess would be they didn't need a squad as large as the gunfighters to change sides. Looking at the logs, each side had about the same number of squads in the 15 - 20 range. Were I a CM (and I'm not!), that would likely be one of the things I would look at for balancing sides.

dedicated axis squads

I keep hearing this statement, unfortunately for the Allies as far as I have been able to tell there are no "dedicated Allied Squads" Im sure there would be if able. Its a luxery we dont have

I'm sure there are many squads who consider themselves dedicated allied squads but recognize the reality that side balancing must occur. IMO, it's making sure the side balancing is done with consideration for the affected squads, not making sure that all squads are affected. Making squads on the low numbered side, who requested to be on the low number side, switch to the high number side at the expense of a squad that wanted to be on the high number side just makes no sense to me.

Regards,

Hammer

[perdue3]

yep you know me when I see a squad that never shifts I call it a conspiracy lol. Or wait is that a fact? Oh it is a fact that JG11 and KN only swap sides once a year while others are forced to do it quarterly.  Got to say shiftty I'm surprised you flipped that waffle that way.

I recall that one time we flew Allies. Bad news though, we requested Allies.


Apart from all the grammatical errors, spelling errors, and strong lack of logic from a lot of posters in this thread; There is only one thing that bothers me: Ignorance. It is so ignorant to wonder why Allied Squads have to fly axis sometimes. Do you really not understand it? Ask yourself this question, "What side do I want to fly this month?" 75% of FSO attendants are going to answer "Allied." Let's say there are 40 total squads in FSO (for sake of less confusion let all the squads have 10 pilots), the setup calls for a 50/50 split. Now total we have 400 pilots. They have to be split 50/50 so 200 will fly Axis, 200 will fly Allied. If 30 squads request Allied and 10 request Axis (30+10=40) not everyone can get what they want. Some of those squadrons that requested Allied will be forced to fly Axis (10 exactly). The ONLY reason why this has to happen is because the setup calls for 50/50 split (hypothetically 200 vs. 200). If everyone was able to fly the side they wanted it would be 30 Allied squads vs 10 Axis squads (in this hypothetical situation). That is a 75/25 split (300/100) and the event will be crap. Axis would still win mind you, because JG 11, KN, LCA, and 9GIAP are uber sauce and get what they want.

So the only reason why Allied requestees are forced to fly Axis is because not enough squads request Axis. Fortunately there are some "dedicated Axis Squads" like JG 11, Kommando Nowotny, JG 54, and JG 2 that will always fly Axis (ETO, MTO). So at least those squads (JG 11, KN, JG 54, and JG 2) will always be happy because we never have to worry about Axis being too popular. There are some great and dedicated Allied Squads. I consider G3-MF, 325th, Nightmares, 49th, 35th, etc. all Allied squads. Unfortunately for those guys, Allied is popular (always) and sometimes they must fly Axis for balance reasons. Every month more squads request Allied than Axis. This is why you never see KN or JG 11 on Allied. We actually prefer to fly the Luftwaffe and IJN, IJAAF aircraft over the British, American, and Soviet aircraft. Of all the squadrons in FSO, there are very few that feel that way. KN happens to be one of them.