Author Topic: Mediterranean Maelstrom  (Read 6113 times)

Offline swareiam

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Re: Mediterranean Maelstrom
« Reply #15 on: April 07, 2013, 10:58:38 PM »
The thing that I am not understanding is that by December 1941. The Island of Malta was the most heavily bombed target in the world. After the Italians miserable failure in their attacks on Malta. Hitler sent an entire Luftwaffe Air Fleet to Sicily. That was two thousand aircraft. The British didn't have space to park two thousand aircraft on Malta must less have them built and mustered them in one place in the world at that time. They all weren't Spitfire Vs either. How was this missed in the write up.

If we're playing this close to the history, were looking at a 3:1 advantage in aircraft for the Luftwaffe. The anti-aircraft fire was more withering than the Spitfires as well.

As a bomber pilot in this scenario, I can attest that without the advent of NOE approaches, we didn't stand a chance. Those were the very first sorties as well. Too many Allied fighters mustered in the same place is no fun for bomber pilots.

Changes to the scenario write;

1. Frames 1 and 2 Allied aircraft should be limited to half of their 1:3 force over Malta. The other half can protect the fleet. The British must sweat until the third frame. There should only be the Axis commanders really bad screw up to not get a sizable force over Malta in those two frames.

2. It only takes a single one thousand pound bomb to sink a Aircraft carrier in real life, that is after considerable burning and loss of systems. Jacking the sink weight up to 20k plus on a CV is way over kill, with that knowledge bomber pilot won't go after CVs (period). If bombers get to target they should be able to sink ships. The sink weight on cargo ship should be the standard JU87 bomb loadout with a 1100 lb AP bomb and 250 pounders on the wings.

3. Increase the number of required sorties to the island and decrease the values placed on the targets. Make the Axis work hard to achieve the victory by bombing more often.

4. If JU88s are attacking ships they MUST not fly in formations. They should be singles only. You may want to consider unlimited bomber sorties for bomber pilots, keeping in mind that this was the most bombed target in the world in 1941.

Thinking out of the box is not a bad idea for this one and it would be more fun.

 :salute

 
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Offline Devil 505

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Re: Mediterranean Maelstrom
« Reply #16 on: April 07, 2013, 11:29:40 PM »
Well put.  :aok
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Offline Guppy35

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Re: Mediterranean Maelstrom
« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2013, 03:45:46 PM »
Red, please explain to me how you are going to get the defenders to fly when they are down 3 planes to 1 and then can only used half of them to defend.  In your thinking, 300 LW planes are fighting 100 RAF planes, with only 50 of those RAF planes available to defend the island.  So in essence you are asking cartoon pilots without any sense of the history to up into a horde at 6-1 odds with little chance of survival.

Outside of myself, maybe you and a few others, who is going to want to fly that scenario?  Would the LW have shown up in DGS and been ok with those odds?  I kinda doubt it.  There is a reason bombers didn't survive well without overwhelming escort.  It's going to be an issue in scenarios unless you can find guys willing to fight against the odds that allow for that kind of escort.  I can think of a few who'd love the challenge as well as the chance to see what it must have looked like as much as a computer game can allow, but I doubt it would be a big seller


I could care less about points and 'winning' in a scenario as what I'm after is a chance to step back in time as much as a computer flight sim will allow.  If it connects me to the history that way, then I'm fine.  So that  being said, as far as I'm concerned you could set any of the targets to fall over in a strong breeze.  All targets do is provide a place for cartoon bomber guys to try and hit, and for cartoon fighter guys to rally to defend.

So the question I have, is did the bombers get to the targets and drop bombs?  Did the escorts drive off the defenders?  Did the defenders stop the attack?

Red lets also be clear.  This is May 42 to August 42.  So nothing was 'missed' as you put it.  It was all Spitfires and mainly Spitfire Vc with double the ammo load of the AH Vb the defenders had. over 230 Spitfires had arrived by March of 42 with more on the way.   So your 1941 argument doesn't hold.  Your numbers balance isn't accurate as the Germans had siphoned of a large amount of their units to support North Africa and elsewhere.  During the time frame of the scenario the Italians were much bigger players.

No design is ever going to be perfect.  That being said, what also needs to be looked at is how the CO's recruited, what the tone was after having a frame not go the way it was supposed to, how was the planning, did the other CO out plan me and did his guys out perform mine.

Red, you were there last scenario when we had that frame where the bombers got clobbered.  There was a small contingent that immediately wanted to blame the design, the plan, or whatever they could find outside of the fact that the other guy did their job better then we did.  We killed that talk fast.  A lot of folks wanted to take their ball and go home cause it 'wasn't fun'. 

We wouldn't let it go that way.  We credited the other guys for a better job, and worked at doing ours better the next frame which we did.  We also beat the bushes for pilots so that we had as many as we could to help the cause.  And you know how hard we worked from long before the scenario ran to every day while it ran to keep our guys engaged and invested.

This isn't an FSO, and it shouldn't be perceived as such.  These things take a lot of personal investment to make them work.  And you get out of them what you put into them.  FSO approaches that a different way and does it well for FSO.  But FSO's aren't scenarios any more then scenarios are not FSO's. 
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Offline kilo2

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Re: Mediterranean Maelstrom
« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2013, 05:14:07 PM »
Red, please explain to me how you are going to get the defenders to fly when they are down 3 planes to 1 and then can only used half of them to defend.  In your thinking, 300 LW planes are fighting 100 RAF planes, with only 50 of those RAF planes available to defend the island.  So in essence you are asking cartoon pilots without any sense of the history to up into a horde at 6-1 odds with little chance of survival.

Outside of myself, maybe you and a few others, who is going to want to fly that scenario?  Would the LW have shown up in DGS and been ok with those odds?  I kinda doubt it.  There is a reason bombers didn't survive well without overwhelming escort.  It's going to be an issue in scenarios unless you can find guys willing to fight against the odds that allow for that kind of escort.  I can think of a few who'd love the challenge as well as the chance to see what it must have looked like as much as a computer game can allow, but I doubt it would be a big seller


I could care less about points and 'winning' in a scenario as what I'm after is a chance to step back in time as much as a computer flight sim will allow.  If it connects me to the history that way, then I'm fine.  So that  being said, as far as I'm concerned you could set any of the targets to fall over in a strong breeze.  All targets do is provide a place for cartoon bomber guys to try and hit, and for cartoon fighter guys to rally to defend.

So the question I have, is did the bombers get to the targets and drop bombs?  Did the escorts drive off the defenders?  Did the defenders stop the attack?

Red lets also be clear.  This is May 42 to August 42.  So nothing was 'missed' as you put it.  It was all Spitfires and mainly Spitfire Vc with double the ammo load of the AH Vb the defenders had. over 230 Spitfires had arrived by March of 42 with more on the way.   So your 1941 argument doesn't hold.  Your numbers balance isn't accurate as the Germans had siphoned of a large amount of their units to support North Africa and elsewhere.  During the time frame of the scenario the Italians were much bigger players.

No design is ever going to be perfect.  That being said, what also needs to be looked at is how the CO's recruited, what the tone was after having a frame not go the way it was supposed to, how was the planning, did the other CO out plan me and did his guys out perform mine.

Red, you were there last scenario when we had that frame where the bombers got clobbered.  There was a small contingent that immediately wanted to blame the design, the plan, or whatever they could find outside of the fact that the other guy did their job better then we did.  We killed that talk fast.  A lot of folks wanted to take their ball and go home cause it 'wasn't fun'.  

We wouldn't let it go that way.  We credited the other guys for a better job, and worked at doing ours better the next frame which we did.  We also beat the bushes for pilots so that we had as many as we could to help the cause.  And you know how hard we worked from long before the scenario ran to every day while it ran to keep our guys engaged and invested.

This isn't an FSO, and it shouldn't be perceived as such.  These things take a lot of personal investment to make them work.  And you get out of them what you put into them.  FSO approaches that a different way and does it well for FSO.  But FSO's aren't scenarios any more then scenarios are not FSO's.  

Ah there he is. I knew it was only a matter of time. All four frames different plans and strategies by the axis, nearly the same result. I think that proves the setup is a bit off.  
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Offline Guppy35

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Re: Mediterranean Maelstrom
« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2013, 05:38:35 PM »
Ah there he is. I knew it was only a matter of time. All four frames different plans and strategies by the axis, nearly the same result. I think that proves the setup is a bit off.  

Or it proves what your motive was behind the thread to begin with Sukov,which isn't a huge surprise :aok

Do remember the only reason I signed up Allied was at your request as you wanted me as a target.  My preference was to go where the side had the tougher job, as escort and going further in a fighter always is.  But of course that's a design issue.  Not possible that the defenders just did a better job.

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Offline Stampf

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Re: Mediterranean Maelstrom
« Reply #20 on: April 08, 2013, 06:01:00 PM »
Or it proves what your motive was behind the thread to begin with Sukov,which isn't a huge surprise :aok

Do remember the only reason I signed up Allied was at your request as you wanted me as a target.  My preference was to go where the side had the tougher job, as escort and going further in a fighter always is.  But of course that's a design issue.  Not possible that the defenders just did a better job.



That's just FUBAR right there.

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Offline kilo2

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Re: Mediterranean Maelstrom
« Reply #21 on: April 08, 2013, 06:28:41 PM »
Or it proves what your motive was behind the thread to begin with Sukov,which isn't a huge surprise :aok

Do remember the only reason I signed up Allied was at your request as you wanted me as a target.  My preference was to go where the side had the tougher job, as escort and going further in a fighter always is.  But of course that's a design issue.  Not possible that the defenders just did a better job.



What? I was joking. You said you were going to fly axis then changed your own mind. The motive of the thread was to point out that this setup is off.
I knew you would show up eventually though posting the same excuses. There is a refusal by some scenario CMs to look toward any mistakes in their setups. Anytime any changes are brought up the buck is always passed to the players or lack thereof.

I never implied the defenders did a poor job they did well. If the roles were reversed I would still be posting how I thought the setup was off.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2013, 06:38:42 PM by kilo2 »
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Offline Ruah

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Re: Mediterranean Maelstrom
« Reply #22 on: April 08, 2013, 06:55:02 PM »
Nope, but the STORY line of the scenario was a "Resupply of Malta" not Sicily.

And that is the crux of the problem - the first frame was the 'resupply of Malta' and that consisted of a bunch of planes taking off from a CV and landing at Malta - the 'resupply' was never the goal for the allies.  What should be the first 'resupply' frame is for a weak allied force with an alt disadvantage (since they are upping to defend and are lower then the attackers as during the war) trying to get weak (destroyer weak) merchant ships into harbor with a clear reward for each merchant ship (x number of planes per ship) and so on. . . the allies should be frantic and at a major disadvantage in terms of air power, warning and the whole lot - the only advantage the allies have is 1 CV, the destination location (Malta), and the audacity to try to run a major gauntlet where the axis have total air superiority.  

What happened was a bunch of spits climbed to cap, dove down to land at Malta, and then a whole bunch of people used that now 'unlocked' base as a launching point and circle up to fight. . . after that, and the radar, and the unsinkable merchant targets, and the sailing of the CV group by the allies into Syracuse harbor and at that point any STORY went out the window.  

I cannot imagine the allies had much fun either in the end and the reason is because the scenario used history as the basis to use some devices (planes, ships) while willfully ignoring considerations and when these issues were brought up, those who did were ignored (and no I am not talking just about my CO/XO but also others from both sides - there was a very 'it is this way because we have already decided it will be this way' attitude).  

I hope that in the future, when anyone asks 'why is this like this' the big shots upstairs will realize that there are probably others who have the same doubts. . . and this last frame really showed me that there is little or no consideration for the rank and file like me. . . and I will say this now - I will FREAK OUT if there is a god-damned no fly zone next time. . . largest historical manipulation if I ever saw one. . .
« Last Edit: April 08, 2013, 06:59:20 PM by Ruah »

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Mediterranean Maelstrom
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Offline perdue3

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Re: Mediterranean Maelstrom
« Reply #23 on: April 08, 2013, 07:13:05 PM »
It seems that everything that needs to be said has been said. I was very nice and polite throughout the whole scenario. I never said a word once it started. But....

The fact is, this design is good. Very accurate (minus the hardness of merchant ships LOLZ). However, Scenario CM's again show the lack of a good balance between accuracy and fun. I have explained this time and time again so no need to go on. Now, the idea of a Maltese event is great! Spit V's and 109F's woohoo! Great matchup. However, we have to penetrate a castle and an area that is as big as a keypad and there is no room for strategy because of radar. If this were an FSO-type setup it would have been more fun but still crap. My final analysis on this scenario: Pure, fresh, steaming dog toejam. End of discussion. If you would like to know why, refer to all of the posts in this thread (except those of Scenario CM's).

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Offline KCDitto

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Re: Mediterranean Maelstrom
« Reply #24 on: April 08, 2013, 07:28:57 PM »
I want to Thank you perdue3 for being polite during this scenario. Really, I do appreciate that very much.. THANK YOU.

That being said...........

Nothing wrong with the set up... It was ALL MY FAULT. I have no idea of strategy...

I am sorry to all Luftwaffe guys that wasted their time coming out to play for 4 Saturdays. My command is over..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iEY6WoGm6A       :rofl


Offline Devil 505

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Re: Mediterranean Maelstrom
« Reply #25 on: April 08, 2013, 07:32:29 PM »
I want to Thank you perdue3 for being polite during this scenario. Really, I do appreciate that very much.. THANK YOU.

That being said...........

Nothing wrong with the set up... It was ALL MY FAULT. I have no idea of strategy...

I am sorry to all Luftwaffe guys that wasted their time coming out to play for 4 Saturdays. My command is over..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iEY6WoGm6A       :rofl

The radar situation made any strategic planning a moot point. You can only do so much with the cards stacked against you.
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Offline kilo2

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Re: Mediterranean Maelstrom
« Reply #26 on: April 08, 2013, 07:37:17 PM »
I want to Thank you perdue3 for being polite during this scenario. Really, I do appreciate that very much.. THANK YOU.

That being said...........

Nothing wrong with the set up... It was ALL MY FAULT. I have no idea of strategy...

I am sorry to all Luftwaffe guys that wasted their time coming out to play for 4 Saturdays. My command is over..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iEY6WoGm6A       :rofl



Its good of you to try and jump on the grenade for your friends in the CM team.
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Offline KCDitto

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Re: Mediterranean Maelstrom
« Reply #27 on: April 08, 2013, 07:41:33 PM »
Its good of you to try and jump on the grenade for your friends in the CM team.


 :rofl


Dude............... sarcasm!!!!!

I totally think it was a CRAP SET UP!!!  See previous posts    :bhead


no comment on the shooting squad video?    :bolt:

Offline kilo2

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Re: Mediterranean Maelstrom
« Reply #28 on: April 08, 2013, 07:46:45 PM »

 :rofl


Dude............... sarcasm!!!!!

I totally think it was a CRAP SET UP!!!  See previous posts    :bhead


no comment on the shooting squad video?    :bolt:
:rofl
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Offline Guppy35

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Re: Mediterranean Maelstrom
« Reply #29 on: April 08, 2013, 07:49:51 PM »
So lets run it again and switch sides :aok
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