No Icons for enemy

[Delirium]

1. No icons does not mean more realism.
   It would make some thing more, a lot of other things less realistic.

2. No icons does not make the game more difficult.
   The difficulty in the game lies in killing some one while they are trying to kill you. It is the other person that creates the difficulty. Turning icons off doesn't change that fact, it merely shifts some of the difficulty to a different skill.

Hitech, I need to buy you a drink! 

If you don't want icons, you can always turn them off. I've known a couple players that have done that in the past.

[seano]

Wiley,

At the heart of this is an understandable wish for a leveler to the often lopsided nature of the MA dominated by DA ACM, hoarding or hit and running. But, in the presentation the proponents reveal too much of their personal motives and inclinations mistaken as sound arguments for HiTech to drastically change the nature of his livelihood. The AvA is a fully functioning Main  Play arena. If seano or Vinkman or touquilla wanted to, they could become AvA CM and host one night a week in the manner of their choosing.

All of the arguments for noIcons hinge upon not wanting to face others in any form or permutation of DA skillz vs. skillz after the understandable feeling is expressed of frustration with MA play conduct as usual. This is revealed in their unwillingness to become AvA CM or host personal custom arenas in which to persuade others to their point of view. I suspect the reality of low AvA numbers and very few custom arenas at any given time is obvious even to them.

So they want HiTech to cut his throat by forcing their minority view and wants upon the MA at large without evidence to the contrary of his personal experience running his company. This would indeed change the nature of who are the sharks and who are the minnows. Specifically it would make the three of them the sharks instead of those who spend inordinate amounts of time in the DA practicing and learning ACM. Most combat would be dictated by the ability to sneek around in the bushes and pick the unwary from underneath without them ever seeing their attacker. Yes it would be a leveler of skill for about a single tour until subscriptions dropped off.

But, they don't have to pay the light bill in Wako or meet the payroll each month, and haven't for the last 13 years with this game. Which is the most disingenuous canard in their arguments to HiTech. That they have superior experience to his and should concede to their acumen without going through the effort of proving it with the AvA or a custom arena. After all, they are asking him to change his business plan on only their word for the outcome while not being owners of their own games in his industry.

im not telling hitech to do away with the current main arena. im trying to get another late war arena without enemy icons where late war perk points can be earned. people dont fly ava because they cant earn perks towards thier 262 and the plane set is usually very limited. im trying to get this just so we can try and see how it goes.  being the cm in the ava takes time that i dont have. i have a 2.5 year old and 4 month old. hitech has a real airplane, im sure hes not hurting too bad when it comes to money and making payroll. not to mention taxes in texas are way cheap too. this is about trying to imprve the best ww2 flight simulator already out there.

[Wiley]

im not telling hitech to do away with the current main arena. im trying to get another late war arena without enemy icons where late war perk points can be earned. people dont fly ava because they cant earn perks towards thier 262 and the plane set is usually very limited. im trying to get this just so we can try and see how it goes.  being the cm in the ava takes time that i dont have. i have a 2.5 year old and 4 month old. hitech has a real airplane, im sure hes not hurting too bad when it comes to money and making payroll. not to mention taxes in texas are way cheap too. this is about trying to imprve the best ww2 flight simulator already out there.

So... people avoid gameplay they would actually enjoy to maximize their perk gain...

On the upside, I've never seen that argument made on this particular issue.  On the downside, I somewhat doubt it's the reason.

Wiley.

[Torquila]

Guys... we can never improve the game, only remind HT of stuff maybe he originally intended/hoped to do.

[Vinkman]

So does friendly icons only, as that is the easiest thing to do, see friendly engaged on the deck, go to him to find enemy.  Doesn't improve the ganging situation.

Yes you are correct to an extent. Seeing a friendly doen not mean you know who is engaged and who isn't. Requires a lot more radio communication with friendliesto have good SA. Not sure people would do it. I find most fly around like the radio doesn't work. Also what are you diving on? Brewster? 190? Spit? Probably makes a big difference to some on whether they will blow alt or not. It won't eliminate ganging, but I think it will reduce it. IT does in the AVA.

...And is missing planes fun?  Is not seeing the enemy aircraft a desirable trait for your gameplay?  On the flip side, is it fun to be hit by a plane you didn't see against the ground clutter?

You're making it sound like you won't see ANY enemy aircraft in that statement. Yes, being sneaky can be fun. Yes slipping past a horde if you are heavy and inbound to a base can be fun.

And once again, we're back to the fact that this is a game.  What if your opponent doesn't have your perfectly chosen and blended for the current terrain camo skin on his system?

That have always been a problem with Skins. I think no want's enemy skins to be selected by the pilot, but it is a limitation of some folks computing power so we have to deal with it. My guess is that someday it won't be an issue. But again, this a limitation of the hardware, not the idea of strategy through camoflage.

But is it fun?  If people desired no icon gameplay, wouldn't the AVA have been full when they were running the no icon events? What I'd be doing if I were actually serious about getting some no icon stuff going is one night a week, advertising the hell out of it, have a custom arena set up with no icons.  Show HTC how full that arena gets with all the people coming out to fly with no icons enabled.  Use your numbers to show there is a demand for this kind of gameplay.  Edit:  And not the first time you do it either when it's in the 'let's see what this is' phase, show a consistent weekly attendance over time.

Of course, the other possibility is it would be a ghost town because unfortunately there just aren't that many people looking for this kind of gameplay.  At least you wouldn't have to worry about the player numbers cap on the custom arenas.

Yes it's fun. You have to be careful about Empty arenas like AVA, EW, MW, as evidence that players don't like the format. People go to the LW MA, because that's where everyone is. It's a critical mass thing. All other attemps at different game play fail because of inertia. As a result, the only valid experiment would be to have no icon night in the LWMA. I guarentee if you did, you would not suddenly see 350 players in MW, for example. It's why I suggested trying it in the LWMA. It's the only valid place to test gameplay settings.

[Ack-Ack]

Guys... we can never improve the game, only remind HT of stuff maybe he originally intended/hoped to do.

And it's obvious that "no icons" wasn't something he originally hoped to do.

ack-ack

[ink]

A toggle like auto takeoff, for dynamic icons

they appear normal at maximum distances, shrink in size and loses the ID tag at 800....itll just say Knight/Bish/Rook......400 it becomes a dot in the same area...

the best of both worlds

if someone sneaks up on you and you miss the small dot if he is that close....then you need better SA,

I do think sneaking would be a bit easier, and that may make people cry

hell never mind....anything will make people cry.

[Vinkman]

Wiley,

At the heart of this is an understandable wish for a leveler to the often lopsided nature of the MA dominated by DA ACM, hoarding or hit and running. But, in the presentation the proponents reveal too much of their personal motives and inclinations mistaken as sound arguments for HiTech to drastically change the nature of his livelihood. The AvA is a fully functioning Main  Play arena. If seano or Vinkman or touquilla wanted to, they could become AvA CM and host one night a week in the manner of their choosing.

All of the arguments for noIcons hinge upon not wanting to face others in any form or permutation of DA skillz vs. skillz after the understandable feeling is expressed of frustration with MA play conduct as usual. This is revealed in their unwillingness to become AvA CM or host personal custom arenas in which to persuade others to their point of view. I suspect the reality of low AvA numbers and very few custom arenas at any given time is obvious even to them.

So they want HiTech to cut his throat by forcing their minority view and wants upon the MA at large without evidence to the contrary of his personal experience running his company. This would indeed change the nature of who are the sharks and who are the minnows. Specifically it would make the three of them the sharks instead of those who spend inordinate amounts of time in the DA practicing and learning ACM. Most combat would be dictated by the ability to sneek around in the bushes and pick the unwary from underneath without them ever seeing their attacker. Yes it would be a leveler of skill for about a single tour until subscriptions dropped off.

But, they don't have to pay the light bill in Wako or meet the payroll each month, and haven't for the last 13 years with this game. Which is the most disingenuous canard in their arguments to HiTech. That they have superior experience to his and should concede to their acumen without going through the effort of proving it with the AvA or a custom arena. After all, they are asking him to change his business plan on only their word for the outcome while not being owners of their own games in his industry.

A scathing personal attack.

I like game theory for game theory's sake. I'm discussing, how icons affect gameplay, pluses and minuses. Discuss more....Judge less.   

[Wiley]

Yes you are correct to an extent. Seeing a friendly doen not mean you know who is engaged and who isn't. Requires a lot more radio communication with friendliesto have good SA. Not sure people would do it. I find most fly around like the radio doesn't work. Also what are you diving on? Brewster? 190? Spit? Probably makes a big difference to some on whether they will blow alt or not. It won't eliminate ganging, but I think it will reduce it. IT does in the AVA.

I think the AVA majority has quite a bit of a different mentality to the majority in the MA when it comes to ganging, there's probably a combination of factors.  I'll agree with the radio comms becoming more useful, but like you say most peoples' radios don't seem to work.

You're making it sound like you won't see ANY enemy aircraft in that statement. Yes, being sneaky can be fun. Yes slipping past a horde if you are heavy and inbound to a base can be fun.

Having spent a lot of time flying no icons in the other sim and low range icons every Friday since I've been here, I can pretty much say if it's against the ground and outside of icon range, 9 out of 10 times it's effectively invisible to me.

That have always been a problem with Skins. I think no want's enemy skins to be selected by the pilot, but it is a limitation of some folks computing power so we have to deal with it. My guess is that someday it won't be an issue. But again, this a limitation of the hardware, not the idea of strategy through camoflage.

True, but the hardware's what we have to work with, and it's part of why it's a bad idea.  The problem is, there are a legion of things a person can do with their hardware/settings to improve their chances to give themselves an edge over others in a no icon environment.  That is bollocks.  Video configuration and hardware purchasing decisionmaking should not be a critical skill relevant to the single most important aspect of the game.

Yes it's fun. You have to be careful about Empty arenas like AVA, EW, MW, as evidence that players don't like the format. People go to the LW MA, because that's where everyone is. It's a critical mass thing. All other attemps at different game play fail because of inertia. As a result, the only valid experiment would be to have no icon night in the LWMA. I guarentee if you did, you would not suddenly see 350 players in MW, for example. It's why I suggested trying it in the LWMA. It's the only valid place to test gameplay settings.

I don't know.  If you had LWMA (Icons) and LWMA (No Icons) I guarantee you'd have a population in the no icon no higher than 15% of the LWMA (Icons) and most of them would be milkrunners.

With forcing it into the LWMA, I think you'd wind up with a similar situation to when TT was a thing, where you'd have a contingent that would be actively happy it was there, and a contingent that wouldn't play that day.  In between them would be a majority that would tolerate it.

All I see it doing is encouraging more combat avoidance, which is prevalent enough in the game as-is.

Wiley.

[Vinkman]

True, but the hardware's what we have to work with, and it's part of why it's a bad idea.  The problem is, there are a legion of things a person can do with their hardware/settings to improve their chances to give themselves an edge over others in a no icon environment.  That is bollocks.  Video configuration and hardware purchasing decisionmaking should not be a critical skill relevant to the single most important aspect of the game.

If that's the case and Icons are equalizers, then I couldn't agreee more.

I don't know.  If you had LWMA (Icons) and LWMA (No Icons) I guarantee you'd have a population in the no icon no higher than 15% of the LWMA (Icons) and most of them would be milkrunners.

With forcing it into the LWMA, I think you'd wind up with a similar situation to when TT was a thing, where you'd have a contingent that would be actively happy it was there, and a contingent that wouldn't play that day.  In between them would be a majority that would tolerate it.

All I see it doing is encouraging more combat avoidance, which is prevalent enough in the game as-is.

Wiley.

I certainly don't want to encourage combat avoidance. I was thinking that the LWMA is, during peak hours, very crouded [much hording], and no icons might help relieve that. Which is the reason HTC [I believe] went to split arenas at one point. I agree no icons would discourage fighting when numbers are low in the Arena. I was thinking they might lead to better quality fighting when numbers are very high. But your point is well taken.  

[Wiley]

If that's the case and Icons are equalizers, then I couldn't agreee more.

And to a certain degree I agree that a colored flag visible at a glance from 3 and a half miles is a bit overkill.  In my perfect world for scenarios and times when I want to play no icons, the dots at range would be no smaller than say, 1/64th of an inch diameter.  That's big enough to be noticeable, but small enough to be able to be overlooked unless you take the time to scan.

Ink's idea isn't terrible, it somewhat splits the difference between being able to see them coming in at you and being able to use the angles to hide from the guy in a turnfight.  A change that would have to go along with it though would be to remove the ability to hear enemy engines from the cockpit.  Even currently, I use sound to follow aircraft that are out of my sight for a moment.

I certainly don't want to encourage combat avoidance. I was thinking that the LWMA is, during peak hours, very crouded [much hording], and no icons might help relieve that. Which is the reason HTC [I believe] went to split arenas at one point. I agree no icons would discourage fighting when numbers are low in the Arena. I was thinking they might lead to better quality fighting when numbers are very high. But your point is well taken.  

The tricky (and kind of fascinating) thing is trying to figure out why certain things work and why others don't, and what kind of effects changes would have if they were implemented.  I see the train of logic you're following there with it possibly reducing the hording, but an alternative result might be people would still seek safety in numbers because they benefit from more eyes to look for bandits.  If you don't know how many of them there are and where they are, you better group up for safety, right?

In an open ended game like this, I truly and deeply believe hording is literally impossible to stop unless the game actively makes it impossible.  If 5 guys can do something, 10 can do it easier.  20 can do it effortlessly.  That is just pretty much physics.

The other thing that gets me every single time no icons come up, people talk about how much fun it is to be able to sneak past enemy planes, to get away from the enemy low on the deck, to bounce people unawares.

You never see people talking about how much fun it is to lose an enemy plane in ground clutter, not be able to find the dot on radar, and be bounced by an altmonkey unawares.

To me, that's an indication that is because those parts really might not be all that much fun and exciting.  It sucks bad enough being outflown, but to not even see what killed you really gets people angry.  Look at how much vitriol gets thrown around because of people being dragged to invisible short icon Wirbles.  Now apply that to enemy planes.

Just how I see it.  Nice to see a difference of opinion can still be had in here without too much browbeating.

Wiley.

[seano]

I AGREE THAT JUST STRAIGHT UP ELIMINATING ENEMY ICONS WOULD BE TOO MUCH OF A SHOCK FOR THE LWMA. BUT HAVING A SEPARATE ARENA WITH THOSE SETTINGS JUST TO TRY OUT CANT BE A BAD IDEA AT ALL.
    AND YES, ITS ALL ABOUT EARNING THOSE PERKS FOR A 262 RIDE.

     THE WHOLE CONCEPT OF NOT KNOWING WHAT P[LANE IS COMING AT YOU 5K OUT WOULD CHANGE THE WHOE DYNAMIC OF A FIGHT. YOU WOULDNT BE ABLE TO TACTICALLY SET YOURSELF UP FOR A "SPIT" FIGHT OR A P51 FIGHT OR WHATEVER UNTIL YOU ACTUALLY MERGED CLOSE ENOUGH TO SEE THE ACTUAL PLANE OR EVEN HEAR ITS ENGINE WHEN IT WENT BY.

         HITECH, WHAT DO YOU LIKE ON YOUR PIZZA?

[Arlo]

        HITECH, WHAT DO YOU LIKE ON YOUR PIZZA?

Cragganmore (maybe a lower case of it) .... and common sense.  

[bustr]

Vinkman,

Your sales pitch is based on your personal feelings and offering the customer noIcons to eliminate the advantage experienced by those who live in the DA practicing ACM that dominates in the LWMA. So the only response perceived by you, unless I want to insult my own intelligence is personal by my analyzing your sales pitch for what it is.

None of you are selling this concept other than from your personal feelings. So far you only offer the imagery that it effectively castrates the existing food chain as it stands in the LWMA and will magically make anyone agreeing with you superior to a muppet by that virtue if only Mr. HiTech will give you what you want. You are selling customers their own class envy of the LWMA's top of the food chain as the reason they should support your wish and vote for your dream. In the end you can deliver nothing to them other than conning them with their emotions. Eventualy the top of the food chain in the current Icon dominated LWMA if they chose to stay in the game would be the top of the food chain in your utopian arena.

I will bet the CM group for the AvA will work with you to present a once a week No Icons LWMA night to help test your as of yet unproven crowd appeal to No Icons as the next defacto standard in Aces High's evolution. Otherwise you don't have any collateral in hand to induce HiTech to change the Icon standard for all of his paying customers. Just your feelings.

[Vinkman]

The tricky (and kind of fascinating) thing is trying to figure out why certain things work and why others don't, and what kind of effects changes would have if they were implemented.  I see the train of logic you're following there with it possibly reducing the hording, but an alternative result might be people would still seek safety in numbers because they benefit from more eyes to look for bandits.  If you don't know how many of them there are and where they are, you better group up for safety, right?

Yes exactly! I thought the same thing, but there would be this time period where no one knew what to do right away. things would be different, and individuals would adapt at different rates. Group think would be shattered for a time period, and the community would take some time to settle in on the new norm. It might be exactly what you said, but both the brief time period until that happened, and the eventual outcome would be interesting to watch unfold. Theories will be proven and dis-proven. Fun stuff for geeks like me.

In an open ended game like this, I truly and deeply believe hording is literally impossible to stop unless the game actively makes it impossible.  If 5 guys can do something, 10 can do it easier.  20 can do it effortlessly.  That is just pretty much physics.

Can't argue with that.

You never see people talking about how much fun it is to lose an enemy plane in ground clutter, not be able to find the dot on radar, and be bounced by an altmonkey unawares.

I lost a lot of guys visually that I was dog fighting with in AVA. Imagine that! I thought it was fun. To me reaction time is a great equalizer in dogfighting. If a players loses sight of you for a second or two or three, that's a big deal. Maybe every Pony wouldn't haven't run because evasive maneuvers had a high possibility of the Spit16 on his six losing sight of him for long enough for the pony to regain advantage. But I did get killed a whole lot more planes I never saw. I laughed at myself for being so clueless. I imagine you are right that in a the crouded LWMA, "bouncing" would be all the rage. But one really interesting thing I learned was that having alt in the AVA was a disadvantage because planes were easy to see against the sky, but hard to see against the ground. So alt monkeys were easy to avoid. Most would employ the tactic of attacking from below, where you would try to Zoom climb to ambush a higher bandit. How's that for a turn of events? Low plane bouncing higher planes.  

Yes a good discussion, thanks Wiley.