No Icons for enemy

[hitech]

seano,

You are making many false statements and many wrong assumptions.

1. No icons does not mean more realism.
   It would make some thing more, a lot of other things less realistic.

2. No icons does not make the game more difficult.
   The difficulty in the game lies in killing some one while they are trying to kill you. It is the other person that creates the difficulty. Turning icons off doesn't change that fact, it merely shifts some of the difficulty to a different skill. So then the question becomes is it more fun using that skill then the way the game is currently set up?

   Unintended consequences. What is the net effect, I.E. if it changes the way everyone flies, how will that net effect everyone enjoyment. (similar to the principle if you make living more important it cause everyone to spend a lot more time running and chasing vs fighting)

3. We already have an arena where players try to set it up with things such as you are suggesting.

4. You believe time played has an effect on the validity of your wish.
   I mostly see the validity of wishes for "More Realism" is inversely proportional to the length of time played.

HiTech

[Vinkman]

Actually the claim is based on tested data.  But you're free to continue your delusions.

Really? Please provide.

[Pand]

   Unintended consequences. What is the net effect, I.E. if it changes the way everyone flies, how will that net effect everyone enjoyment. (similar to the principle if you make living more important it cause everyone to spend a lot more time running and chasing vs fighting)

HTC, taking parts from many ideas posted in this thread...

I really liked the direction INK was heading where the icons are normal from 6K and as the aircraft gets closer, the icon slowly gets smaller until it is gone (say inside of 1K or some other value).  Then instead of an inside of 1K, maybe it just highlights the skin on the tips of the wings to either red or green (or Icons are always in place for friendlies regardless of range).  This way, when you're in a scissors or other maneuver, you can reverse or make a move where IRL the enemy would lose sight of you for a few seconds... you would also be able to take advantage of this in game because the enemy will be unable to perform a quick scan looking for the big red icon announcing your new position.

Just a thought!  

[Vinkman]

I like No icons for enemies. I like AVA with no icons at all, but of course there you can sort by plane type.

Icons completely change the dynamics of the fight. Currently you absolutely know where everyone is. This leads to ganging. There is no such thing a sneaking past, or being missed by a fighter, or even a group of fighters. But in actual air combat that happened all the time.

The result is different dynamic that puts weights the attributes of a plane differently than realliy. Skins are meaningless. A Camo FW-901 ia as easy to see as your Chrome P-51 is.  Shouldn't a camo pain't job be worth something tactically?

It is the case in AVA that I can fly toward 4 enemies and I may actually fly right past them withiin 4K and they don't notice me. That results in not have to having to have the fastest plane in the game to survive. Also if one bandit engages, it's not a given that every plane within 6k will be on me too. If I break away and extend when double teammed, they may lose sight of me and so can hide down at tree top level where the prowling over head Ponies won't have atomatic bounce.

No icons would mean the plane mix in the MA would change, perhaps significantly. It's different gameplay...but don't confuse that with worse gameplay. This garbage about screen resolution not being as good as real life eyesite so we need icons results in the most over correction of any attribute in the game. 6K Icons is gross overkill, making it completely impossble to not be seen by enemy aircraft. In real life it was hard to see enemy aircraft, and that was a huge factor in how things played out.

I'd love to on enemy Icon experiments in the MA. Like we used to do titanic Tuesdays, I'd support one "No Enemy Icon" night.  Would everyone's head explode if the MA did it for 5 hours a week? It's different, fun, and exciting.

Live a little. 

[Wiley]

I'd love to on enemy Icon experiments in the MA. Like we used to do titanic Tuesdays, I'd support one "No Enemy Icon" night.  Would everyone's head explode if the MA did it for 5 hours a week? It's different, fun, and exciting.

Live a little. 

Some peoples' heads pretty much exploded over some crosswind, so I'd say yes.

The thing I dislike about no icons is I don't believe your hardware setup (and I'm well aware that older, lower resolution setups sometimes do in fact do better for spotting dots, so it's not that I'm arguing that only those with the best and latest can benefit) should be the single most important aspect determining your ability to fight.

Icons give everybody the same information regardless of hardware setup, settings, or personal sight issues.  You shouldn't have to pass a physical to play a game effectively.

Wiley.

[Oldman731]

Some peoples' heads pretty much exploded over some crosswind, so I'd say yes.

Heh, prompted me to go read that thread, thanks.  I agree, it's fairly plain that any significant change to the MAs, even for a few minutes, will cause heads to explode.

"I only get FIFTEEN MINUTES to fly each week, and I have to put up with this no-icon stuff?  Count me GONE!"

- oldman

[Vinkman]

Heh, prompted me to go read that thread, thanks.  I agree, it's fairly plain that any significant change to the MAs, even for a few minutes, will cause heads to explode.

"I only get FIFTEEN MINUTES to fly each week, and I have to put up with this no-icon stuff?  Count me GONE!"

- oldman

Lol

[Karnak]

Really? Please provide.

It was posted more than a decade ago, I think in the Planes and Vehicles forums.  I doubt the images attached to the post still exist, even if the post can be found.

[bustr]

   Unintended consequences. What is the net effect, I.E. if it changes the way everyone flies, how will that net effect everyone enjoyment. (similar to the principle if you make living more important it cause everyone to spend a lot more time running and chasing vs fighting)

HiTech

The highlighted is very kind of you HiTech to mention. Finding a way to balance the game play so enough players always feel fighting is the point of playing this Combat Simulation versus doing anything they can to survive, must require god's own patience after all these years. In my decade of participating in your game, I've been able to see the ebb and flow of unintended consequences directly related to this aspect of human nature showcased in the arenas.

My compliments and respects to you for making your sole living under the Occam's Razor of this human idiosyncracy.

[Vinkman]

It was posted more than a decade ago,

Then it's probably out of date.

[seano]

so i flew into a gaggle/formation of buffs going to strats. it was a real nice formation. i actually urned the icons off because there were just too many. what if we start small andmaybe just turn off enemy buff formation icons. its pretty easy to tell what kind of buff it is.

        hitech, as for the trying to survive part, well isnt that what everyone triees to do anyway? i know i will do anything to try not to end up in the tower. running, turning, reversing. diving to make a p38 or 109 splat behind me.

   im not advocating changing the game. im advocating a choice of a arena setting with the whole plane set. ie no enemy icon arena. wish i woulda started this sooner, april first would have been a perfect day to try it.

[Torquila]

The highlighted is very kind of you HiTech to mention. Finding a way to balance the game play so enough players always feel fighting is the point of playing this Combat Simulation versus doing anything they can to survive, must require god's own patience after all these years. In my decade of participating in your game, I've been able to see the ebb and flow of unintended consequences directly related to this aspect of human nature showcased in the arenas.

My compliments and respects to you for making your sole living under the Occam's Razor of this human idiosyncracy.

lol bustr; what a suckup ;-) betya HT is lappin it up with a smirk.

I can't ageee with HT's idea that no icons would not make things more realistic, well duh; of course it would. It would only just expose the other unrealistic things about the game and upset the intended design balance which makes the game unique and "Work".

- The sinews of this finely woven web of illusions and virtual grandeur rest on each piece that, together, speak a sweet song of enchantment that may lead many a pilot cast into the unrelenting realities of the LWA floor.


PS: Why not make icon ranges relative to the time of day? We can have night-time back!

[Vinkman]

I'm reposting this, because I realized that it had so many typos it was un-readable. Hopefully this version is undertandable. 

_____________________________ _____________________________ _____________________________ __________________


I like No icons for enemies. I like AVA with no icons at all, but of course there you can sort by plane type.

Icons completely change the dynamics of the fight. Currently you absolutely know where everyone is. This leads to ganging. There is no such thing a sneaking past, or being missed by a fighter, or even a group of fighters. But in actual air combat that happened all the time.

The result is a different dynamic that weighs the attributes of a plane differently than realliy. Skins are meaningless. A Camo FW-190 is as easy to see as your chrome P-51 is.  Shouldn't a camo pain't job be worth something tactically?

It is the case in AVA that I can fly toward 4 enemies and I may actually fly right past them withiin 4K and they don't notice me. That results in not having to have the fastest plane in the game to survive. Also if one bandit engages, it's not a given that every plane within 6k will be on me too. If I break away and extend when double teammed, they may lose sight of me and so I can hide down at tree top level where the prowling over head Ponies won't even see me. 

No icons would mean the plane mix in the MA might change, perhaps significantly. It's different gameplay...but don't confuse that with worse gameplay. This garbage about screen resolution not being as good as real life eyesight so we need icons, results in the most over correction of any attribute in the game. 6K Icons is gross overkill, making it completely impossble to NOT be seen by enemy aircraft. In real life it was hard to see enemy aircraft, and that was a huge factor in how things played out.

I'd love to do an enemy Icon experiment in the MA. Like we used to do titanic Tuesdays, I'd support one "No Enemy Icon" night.  Would everyone's head explode if the MA did it for 5 hours a week? It's different, fun, and exciting.

Live a little. 

[Wiley]

I like No icons for enemies. I like AVA with no icons at all, but of course there you can sort by plane type.

Icons completely change the dynamics of the fight. Currently you absolutely know where everyone is. This leads to ganging.

So does friendly icons only, as that is the easiest thing to do, see friendly engaged on the deck, go to him to find enemy.  Doesn't improve the ganging situation.

There is no such thing a sneaking past, or being missed by a fighter, or even a group of fighters. But in actual air combat that happened all the time.

...And is missing planes fun?  Is not seeing the enemy aircraft a desirable trait for your gameplay?  On the flip side, is it fun to be hit by a plane you didn't see against the ground clutter?

The result is a different dynamic that weighs the attributes of a plane differently than realliy. Skins are meaningless. A Camo FW-190 is as easy to see as your chrome P-51 is.  Shouldn't a camo pain't job be worth something tactically?

And once again, we're back to the fact that this is a game.  What if your opponent doesn't have your perfectly chosen and blended for the current terrain camo skin on his system?

No icons would mean the plane mix in the MA might change, perhaps significantly. It's different gameplay...but don't confuse that with worse gameplay. This garbage about screen resolution not being as good as real life eyesight so we need icons, results in the most over correction of any attribute in the game. 6K Icons is gross overkill, making it completely impossble to NOT be seen by enemy aircraft. In real life it was hard to see enemy aircraft, and that was a huge factor in how things played out.

But is it fun?  If people desired no icon gameplay, wouldn't the AVA have been full when they were running the no icon events?

I'd love to do an enemy Icon experiment in the MA. Like we used to do titanic Tuesdays, I'd support one "No Enemy Icon" night.  Would everyone's head explode if the MA did it for 5 hours a week? It's different, fun, and exciting.

Live a little.  

What I'd be doing if I were actually serious about getting some no icon stuff going is one night a week, advertising the hell out of it, have a custom arena set up with no icons.  Show HTC how full that arena gets with all the people coming out to fly with no icons enabled.  Use your numbers to show there is a demand for this kind of gameplay.  Edit:  And not the first time you do it either when it's in the 'let's see what this is' phase, show a consistent weekly attendance over time.

Of course, the other possibility is it would be a ghost town because unfortunately there just aren't that many people looking for this kind of gameplay.  At least you wouldn't have to worry about the player numbers cap on the custom arenas.

Wiley.

[bustr]

Wiley,

At the heart of this is an understandable wish for a leveler to the often lopsided nature of the MA dominated by DA ACM, hoarding or hit and running. But, in the presentation the proponents reveal too much of their personal motives and inclinations mistaken as sound arguments for HiTech to drastically change the nature of his livelihood. The AvA is a fully functioning Main  Play arena. If seano or Vinkman or touquilla wanted to, they could become AvA CM and host one night a week in the manner of their choosing.

All of the arguments for noIcons hinge upon not wanting to face others in any form or permutation of DA skillz vs. skillz after the understandable feeling is expressed of frustration with MA play conduct as usual. This is revealed in their unwillingness to become AvA CM or host personal custom arenas in which to persuade others to their point of view. I suspect the reality of low AvA numbers and very few custom arenas at any given time is obvious even to them.

So they want HiTech to cut his throat by forcing their minority view and wants upon the MA at large without evidence to the contrary of his personal experience running his company. This would indeed change the nature of who are the sharks and who are the minnows. Specifically it would make the three of them the sharks instead of those who spend inordinate amounts of time in the DA practicing and learning ACM. Most combat would be dictated by the ability to sneek around in the bushes and pick the unwary from underneath without them ever seeing their attacker. Yes it would be a leveler of skill for about a single tour until subscriptions dropped off.

But, they don't have to pay the light bill in Wako or meet the payroll each month, and haven't for the last 13 years with this game. Which is the most disingenuous canard in their arguments to HiTech. That they have superior experience to his and should concede to their acumen without going through the effort of proving it with the AvA or a custom arena. After all, they are asking him to change his business plan on only their word for the outcome while not being owners of their own games in his industry.