No Icons for enemy

[Arlo]

Oh ... and ....



Don't fear your icon.

[Wiley]

I imagine you are right that in a the crouded LWMA, "bouncing" would be all the rage. But one really interesting thing I learned was that having alt in the AVA was a disadvantage because planes were easy to see against the sky, but hard to see against the ground. So alt monkeys were easy to avoid. Most would employ the tactic of attacking from below, where you would try to Zoom climb to ambush a higher bandit. How's that for a turn of events? Low plane bouncing higher planes.  

Yes a good discussion, thanks Wiley.  

With the low planes being more difficult to see, I've read many pilots claim that's one major disparity between game and reality is that planes below you are often quite easy to see.  Not sure how camo affects that, but I know I've seen it claimed by pilots on these forums more than a few times.

In the other sim's no icon events, another standard tactic was if you had alt and managed to spot his dot from afar, was to build up smash, get low six and creep him from there if the two of you were in theory alone.  Made for some tense moments now and again.  Also greatly increased the amount of time you spent doing belly checks, and vastly improved the value of wing pairs and wingwork.  In no icon situations, it really is a bad idea to be alone, and greatly increases your 'head on a swivel' mentality when you are.

I remember one time spying a pair of P47's cruising along in formation as I was just below them going the other way.  I circled in from the side and was about 200 feet below them in trail coming up on the secondary plane's six.  It was really comical to see the close wing on the lead's plane dip slightly, and then immediately the plane I was trying to sneak just started to wobble spastically as he panicked and took a couple seconds to figure out what to do.  I wasn't quite close enough to get a good shot from where I was, but it was certainly an amusing start to the fight.

As to Bustr's point-  Do AVA perks come across to the MA's?  If so that might be a great test bed to prove somebody in this thread wrong.

Wiley.

[Zoney]

I thought that Icon's were there to make up for the difference in detail that the human eye avails you as opposed to pixels on a computer.  The Icon's are there at 5k and identify the aircraft because the human eye would be able to do that for itself if it was reality and not a computer screen.

If that is true than the Icon's "simulate" more closely what RL visibilty would afford you and therefore I want the Icon's to remain as they are now.

And Wiley, did you use the aformentioned term "alt-monkey" negatively in an earlier post on this subject?  

[trigger2]

I thought that Icon's were there to make up for the difference in detail that the human eye avails you as opposed to pixels on a computer.  The Icon's are there at 5k and identify the aircraft because the human eye would be able to do that for itself if it was reality and not a computer screen.

If that is true than the Icon's "simulate" more closely what RL visibilty would afford you and therefore I want the Icon's to remain as they are now.

And Wiley, did you use the aformentioned term "alt-monkey" negatively in an earlier post on this subject?  

Ding ding ding! We have a winner!

This thread was for removing from GV's, but point still stands:

My main reason for saying NO! The icons give data that would be able to be seen IRL that can't be due to the graphical limitations of our monitors and how display works. Distance is overdone by the size of the object. From the air, you'd be able to ID the country, tank type, color of the paint, and if Fritz has his head poking out of the hatch or not. In here, if you're not 5Ft AGL going >100MPH, you'll never be able to get that information.

[ink]

icons only simulate seeing at a distance at best....and completely over compensates for it at close distance.

a planes camo would most certainly allow him to fly under/over enemy without being spotted....losing the con while fighting and them escaping.....the icons do not allow this.

[Nr_RaVeN]

This concept is lost on both sides.... But at least your all talking about it....   ..In time it will grow... Just like anything there will always be opposing views. Until a person dedicates time to PURE NO ICON play and truly understands the nuances of the NO ICON style of game play there is no way you will convince them to understand the gestalt that PURE NO ICONS delivers.

No icons has its place. The MA is not that place.
 The MA serves the purpose of growing and maintaining subscribers, old and especially new. In the MA a new joiner can fly any air craft any time. It gets them on the hook so to speak...... NO icons in the MA would be detrimental to the bottom line because it would chase off new subscriber's. IMO it is rude and selfish to expect Hi tech to change his business model over such a wish when there are other areas to implement any setting you wish..  

In Aces High there is something for everyone... Remember there are several other arenas to choose from... In regard to limited icons The AVA offers a type of limited icons....  It also offers axis vs allied match ups. That satisfies a market share..

Then we have the FSO... there, its historical match ups with  shorter icon ranges. why do they use shorter icon ranges there???.... Think of no icons as an intensification of that effect... No icons kicks it up a few notches for some.
 Don't for get  WW1, sea, mid war early war... all available for us to enjoy…

FINALY we have the ultimate freedom in the CUSTOM ARENAS.
Most of you do not take advantage of it. There is so much available to you that is under utilized.

In  THE CUSTOM ARENAS you can  do what you want. Do your own thing….Get a group of like minded guys together and do what you want in the custom arenas..
20k Icons, no icons, only spits vs spits, cats  vs dogs, GV against air craft, no eny icons, 200 icon range each side, what ever.....  Build it and somebody will like it...

But for crap sake no mater how folks like to enjoy this sim … Don't begrudge them for wanting to do something different than you. Diversity is a good thing...  Do your thing, in your own space, don't force it on the masses. Make it available for those that choose to try it in the custom arenas..  Heck I used to  criticize guys for flying spits because I felt it was an easy cheap way to get a kill and was a lazy mans plane who didnt want to chalenge himself shame on me...Now I'm embarrassed I ever acted that way... To each there own..

Screw what others think.
Especially the ones that are to dogmatic to debate a topic without treating their opposition respectfully..  

[Vinkman]

Ding ding ding! We have a winner!

This thread was for removing from GV's, but point still stands:

No we don't. It's a myth. Show me the data.

[Vinkman]

This concept is lost on both sides.... But at least your all talking about it....   ..In time it will grow... Just like anything there will always be opposing views. Until a person dedicates time to PURE NO ICON play and truly understands the nuances of the NO ICON style of game play there is no way you will convince them to understand the gestalt that PURE NO ICONS delivers.

No icons has its place. The MA is not that place.
 The MA serves the purpose of growing and maintaining subscribers, old and especially new. In the MA a new joiner can fly any air craft any time. It gets them on the hook so to speak...... NO icons in the MA would be detrimental to the bottom line because it would chase off new subscriber's. IMO it is rude and selfish to expect Hi tech to change his business model over such a wish when there are other areas to implement any setting you wish..  

In Aces High there is something for everyone... Remember there are several other arenas to choose from... In regard to limited icons The AVA offers a type of limited icons....  It also offers axis vs allied match ups. That satisfies a market share..

Then we have the FSO... there, its historical match ups with  shorter icon ranges. why do they use shorter icon ranges there???.... Think of no icons as an intensification of that effect... No icons kicks it up a few notches for some.
 Don't for get  WW1, sea, mid war early war... all available for us to enjoy…

FINALY we have the ultimate freedom in the CUSTOM ARENAS.
Most of you do not take advantage of it. There is so much available to you that is under utilized.

In  THE CUSTOM ARENAS you can  do what you want. Do your own thing….Get a group of like minded guys together and do what you want in the custom arenas..
20k Icons, no icons, only spits vs spits, cats  vs dogs, GV against air craft, no eny icons, 200 icon range each side, what ever.....  Build it and somebody will like it...

But for crap sake no mater how folks like to enjoy this sim … Don't begrudge them for wanting to do something different than you. Diversity is a good thing...  Do your thing, in your own space, don't force it on the masses. Make it available for those that choose to try it in the custom arenas..  Heck I used to  criticize guys for flying spits because I felt it was an easy cheap way to get a kill and was a lazy mans plane who didnt want to chalenge himself shame on me...Now I'm embarrassed I ever acted that way... To each there own..

Screw what others think.
Especially the ones that are to dogmatic to debate a topic without treating their opposition respectfully..  

All true Raven except for one thing. The LWMA is the only place where there is action. I don't believe it's because the LWMA has found the ultimate settings formula. It's just because there is critical mass there. It's been tweaked over years, and will continue to be, I'm sure. But those other arenas, custom included, just don't stand a chance because there aren't enough players to go around. 

[Arlo]

I don't believe it's because the LWMA (actually Dale and the rest of the HiTech gang) has found the ultimate settings formula.

A faith based argument. Show me the data.

[Lusche]

All true Raven except for one thing. The LWMA is the only place where there is action. I don't believe it's because the LWMA has found the ultimate settings formula. It's just because there is critical mass there. It's been tweaked over years, and will continue to be, I'm sure. But those other arenas, custom included, just don't stand a chance because there aren't enough players to go around. 

While critical mass is indeed critically important, it's not only about that, and not the only reason 'everybody' is in LW. Once upon a time the critcal mass was in th EW arena, and not only for a few days but for a long time. Still, players trickled back to LW. LW is the main choice because of it's settings. But of course all the minor arenas do suffer from the "I'd go there if there were somebody" paradoxon. I'm not an exception to this, I would spend a sizeable time of my playing time in WWI if there was only more actvity.

[jimson]

All true Raven except for one thing. The LWMA is the only place where there is action. I don't believe it's because the LWMA has found the ultimate settings formula. It's just because there is critical mass there. It's been tweaked over years, and will continue to be, I'm sure. But those other arenas, custom included, just don't stand a chance because there aren't enough players to go around. 

Some truth to this but it has to be recognized that people prefer it in the first place for it to have reached "critical" mass.

[jimson]

This concept is lost on both sides.... But at least your all talking about it....  ..In time it will grow... Just like anything there will always be opposing views. Until a person dedicates time to PURE NO ICON play and truly understands the nuances of the NO ICON style of game play there is no way you will convince them to understand the gestalt that PURE NO ICONS delivers.

No icons has its place. The MA is not that place.
 The MA serves the purpose of growing and maintaining subscribers, old and especially new. In the MA a new joiner can fly any air craft any time. It gets them on the hook so to speak...... NO icons in the MA would be detrimental to the bottom line because it would chase off new subscriber's. IMO it is rude and selfish to expect Hi tech to change his business model over such a wish when there are other areas to implement any setting you wish..   

In Aces High there is something for everyone... Remember there are several other arenas to choose from... In regard to limited icons The AVA offers a type of limited icons....  It also offers axis vs allied match ups. That satisfies a market share..

Then we have the FSO... there, its historical match ups with  shorter icon ranges. why do they use shorter icon ranges there???.... Think of no icons as an intensification of that effect... No icons kicks it up a few notches for some.
 Don't for get  WW1, sea, mid war early war... all available for us to enjoy…

FINALY we have the ultimate freedom in the CUSTOM ARENAS.
Most of you do not take advantage of it. There is so much available to you that is under utilized.

In  THE CUSTOM ARENAS you can  do what you want. Do your own thing….Get a group of like minded guys together and do what you want in the custom arenas..
20k Icons, no icons, only spits vs spits, cats  vs dogs, GV against air craft, no eny icons, 200 icon range each side, what ever.....  Build it and somebody will like it...

But for crap sake no mater how folks like to enjoy this sim … Don't begrudge them for wanting to do something different than you. Diversity is a good thing...  Do your thing, in your own space, don't force it on the masses. Make it available for those that choose to try it in the custom arenas..  Heck I used to  criticize guys for flying spits because I felt it was an easy cheap way to get a kill and was a lazy mans plane who didnt want to chalenge himself shame on me...Now I'm embarrassed I ever acted that way... To each there own..

Screw what others think.
Especially the ones that are to dogmatic to debate a topic without treating their opposition respectfully.. 

This is a good post.

[killb8]

 I am amendable to turning icons off. That's how our grandfathers did it and they were half blind! Seriously though if 25% of the players like it and 75% do not, it might be fun to try it every fourth map or someodd.

[Pand]

Ding ding ding! We have a winner!

This thread was for removing from GV's, but point still stands:

Not sure how many of you have actually flown an aircraft IRL, but seeing other aircraft below the horizon against regular terrain is tough, even when ATC tells you where to look.

[Oldman731]

Not sure how many of you have actually flown an aircraft IRL, but seeing other aircraft below the horizon against regular terrain is tough, even when ATC tells you where to look.

Yup.  I've often wished that the FAA made everyone paint his plane blaze orange.  For that matter, it's tough enough to see a plane that's above the horizon (unless it's airliner size).

While no-icons initially does encourage people to swim down in the reeds so that they can spot higher planes - and not be spotted by them - you find after you become accustomed to the setting that altitude still is a huge advantage.  Generally you just fly about 6k AGL so that you're above an enemy's zoom climb range.

As others have posted, the nicest thing (to me!) about no-icons is that real world tactics suddenly make sense, and combat occurs at historic ranges (none of the 600-yard sniping stuff).

But I think it would be a huge error to have no-icons in the MA.  It takes several hours to get used to the setting, during which time you're constantly getting surprised and shot down.  I doubt that most people would enjoy no-icons enough to put up with the learning curve.

- oldman