Author Topic: Oxygen  (Read 3377 times)

Offline Arlo

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Re: Oxygen
« Reply #90 on: May 15, 2013, 08:23:25 AM »

This wish is based in ignorance of the way the systems existed in bomber aircraft, and ignorance of the design required to represent them in the game. In fighters it's a simple bottle, perhaps, but it goes far beyond that when you are talking about a life support system. The bottle itself is only part of the system. Of course the OP focused on that because it is the simplest way to think of a critical hit. However, there are several other ways to knock an aircraft down which he has ignored. Mostly, I think this wish is a waste of time because I believe Hitech has probably already taken considerable time in contemplation of exactly what a critical hit might be, and whether we are aware of it, or not, has already included them all in one form or another.

You sure love taking presumption to new heights (ptp). First you imagine motive. Next you imagine ignorance. Then you try to use that imagination to shore up a stronger emotional argument while trying to make it sound like a purely logical one. If you have a logical rebuttal, why do you apparently feel the need to go beyond that?  :aok

Where this wish is very thin is with bombers where the system is multiple bottles, some of which are already in the aircraft. Jump in a B17 and those yellow containers inside the aircraft are O2. Only a small portion of them are in the game, though. [What?! Heh.]Also, bomber aircraft have all got portable units and likely enough for all individuals plus extras too. They had to have them because unlike fighters the bomber crew sometimes must move around inside the plane to take care of various tasks. So, in reality this will not have any affect upon bombers if, as you now want, the entire system is reproduced.

" Mission 8. October 18, 1944 - Kassel Germany."

"Bombed aero-engine and parts factory; B-17 #009. The oxygen supply in the cockpit and the nose ran out over the target. For two hours Page, Lentz, Kellogg, and Vieth filled portable oxygen tanks and carried them through the bomb bay to the pilots in the cockpit and the navigator and bombardier in the nose. Finally had to let down over enemy territory because of lack of oxygen."

http://www.100thbg.com/mainpages/history/history3/brownsclowns2.htm

Having said that, let me correct you on the perspective of the OP since you're not very good at guessing. When it came to a suggestion of a possible oxygen system and hypoxia effect I always thought the bombers were more resilient .... for reasons even you haven't thought to include in your argument. Basically, unless we're talking about a crewman segregated from all the rest (tail gunner) if one is suffering the effects of hypoxia then it will become evident to another. On the flight deck, this would mean pilot and co-pilot would both both have to be suffering it (as in the above quoted instance). Fighter pilots, however, would not have that added measure of security. At extreme altitude (say 30k+), if the O2 system failed (in a less explosive manner) the pilot would be prone to a rapid blackout with no warning then a very short time span before death. Even if the pilot survives the effects of hypoxia, regaining consciousness once below 10,000 is not guaranteed (but isn't merely discounted, either). Yes, the danger presented in losing your oxygen increases with altitude (isn't this established as an obvious by us both, by now?) but the likelihood of what I'm suggesting would be a small percentage of the damage algorithm anyhow. At this point I've seen you waver between this being an 'end of AH' issue to a completely irrelevant/waste of time one. I've seen a great deal of effort, on your part. If I 'didn't know better' I'd say you do somehow feel either threatened by the idea .... or you're the type that takes disagreement to a whole new personal level (not that it has to be 'either or' ... either).  ;)

Among fighters the most likely cause of an O2 explosion is a hit by explosive ammunition, which requires just a proximity hit to destroy the O2 bottle. Anything else will require a direct hit, which means you are more likely to have also gotten multiple hits. Anything like the explosive ammunition or multiple hits will already (currently) kill a fighter. Again, wasted development.

While you may argue probability, you cannot argue certainty. Perhaps the explosive hit was not in the cockpit ... yet shrapnel made it into the cockpit and severed the hose. Perhaps it's not a case of several rounds entering the cockpit but one round, the rest of which stitched the fuselage ... or even missed.

So, in conclusion, all Hitech has to do is say "it's already in the game" and it is, because it obviously is. Now, you will say, "yes but we don't have an hypoxia effect," but you do. It's called a pilot wound. Now you might claim that with hypoxia you have the possibility of clearing your head. Nope, most victims died anyway and the reason is simple; they never knew it. The way most people today discover they are under the effects of hypoxia is communication, which in the war was non-existent because of radio silence. Those are the ones (some of them at least) that just flew off never to be seen again. End of story.

If pilot wound = hypoxia ... it would stop being a pilot wound (or never would have been one) under 10k. Kinda pokes a hole in and lets the air out of a " ... "it's already in the game" and it is, because it obviously is." statement. (Again - ptp) :aok

Pilots on oxygen who experienced violent damage to their O2 system (without bottle explosion or personal injury, as slim a chance as you give for such) would certainly know when the O2 flow ceased and, depending on altitude and reaction time, may be able to descend to a safer altitude before hypoxia rendered them incapable. What you're describing would be more akin to system failure of a different kind (insufficient O2 flow either through mechanical malfunction or pilot error).


« Last Edit: May 15, 2013, 11:07:50 AM by Arlo »

Offline save

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Re: Oxygen
« Reply #91 on: May 15, 2013, 02:38:02 PM »
Hell no, I've been flying in a 12k in a trike, without any signs of hypoxia, we even did quite hard turns at altitude.
Anything below 15k is not going to do anything but get you headace. Turning at 4g prolonged at 15k might.





Its not me in pics above ,but same plane type.

 
 
I admit, sitting there with your feet waggling outside the cockpit, and see a BAC146 whooshing by under you is an experience.


« Last Edit: May 15, 2013, 02:43:17 PM by save »
My ammo last for 6 Lancasters, or one Yak3.
"And the Yak 3 ,aka the "flying Yamato"..."
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Offline Arlo

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Re: Oxygen
« Reply #92 on: May 15, 2013, 02:57:30 PM »
Hell no, I've been flying in a 12k in a trike, without any signs of hypoxia, we even did quite hard turns at altitude.
Anything below 15k is not going to do anything but get you headace. Turning at 4g prolonged at 15k might.

It depends on how long you're that high.

http://www.ifr-magazine.com/oxygen-and-hypoxemia.html

It can also vary per individual and per conditioning.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2013, 03:06:18 PM by Arlo »

Offline Chalenge

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Re: Oxygen
« Reply #93 on: May 15, 2013, 03:08:53 PM »
You sure love taking presumption to new heights (ptp). First you imagine motive. Next you imagine ignorance. Then you try to use that imagination to shore up a stronger emotional argument while trying to make it sound like a purely logical one. If you have a logical rebuttal, why do you apparently feel the need to go beyond that?  :aok

No, at this point I think you are over-reaching in an attempt to keep your wish alive. I can see directly through your motives, both an attempt to control how other pilots fly and ignorance of the way oxygen worked in reality during WWII. I can tell you for a fact that all radial engine aircraft required that oxygen be used any time the aircraft was buttoned up (canopy closed). So, with your wish any one of these aircraft with radial engines that suffers a hit to the oxygen system (not just the tank) will be killed instantly, because of either explosion or carbon-monoxide poisoning.

This will never be implemented. You can try all the illogical 'appeal-to-ignore-rebuttal' turns of argument you want. It's a dead wish.
If you like the Sick Puppy Custom Sound Pack the please consider contributing for future updates by sending a months dues to Hitech Creations for account "Chalenge." Every little bit helps.

Offline Arlo

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Re: Oxygen
« Reply #94 on: May 15, 2013, 03:18:12 PM »
You can try all the illogical 'appeal-to-ignore-rebuttal' turns of argument you want.

I guess I can, though I'm not sure what this bit of random word use means.  Have no fear, Chalenge, m'dear.  :aok

Offline muzik

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Re: Oxygen
« Reply #95 on: May 15, 2013, 06:23:32 PM »
What ............................. ..the hell is he talking about?


I'm done. I have little understanding of programming and game mechanics, but you have ZERO understanding of them.

All of that babble was nothing but false assumptions on your part and jiberish you made up as you go. You TRY to make it out to be far more complicated than it would be but you have no clue what what you are talking about and make less and less sense the longer you argue.

You are wrong about the technical implementation of this idea.

You are wrong about the motives for the idea.

You are wrong about the hypoxia killing "most pilots."

And I'm sure most of your history is wrong too.

If I had to guess what your motive for arguing against this is, I would take what I have heard about your flying style, add it to the comments you have made about "forcing others to fight" and conclude that you are such a timid flyer that you are scared this will take your hiding place away at some point.
Fear? You bet your life...but that all leaves you as you reach combat. Then there's a sense of great excitement, a thrill you can't duplicate anywhere...it's actually fun. Yes, I think it is the most exciting fun in the world. — Lt. Col. Robert B. "Westy" Westbrook, USAAF 6/<--lol@mod

Offline Chalenge

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Re: Oxygen
« Reply #96 on: May 15, 2013, 08:23:20 PM »

I'm done.

You sure talk a lot for someone that is done.

I understand far me than you do, dweeblet. I understand that you and Arlo are both attempting to manipulate the game in order to favor your own style of gameplay. That's all anyone needs to understand.

@Arlo, what it means is that you are trying to accelerate a losing argument based on false assumptions, and then trying to remove the possibility of rebuttal by citing frequency as a weak standpoint. You have no argument that favors your position stronger than manipulation. So go with that.
If you like the Sick Puppy Custom Sound Pack the please consider contributing for future updates by sending a months dues to Hitech Creations for account "Chalenge." Every little bit helps.

Offline Arlo

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Re: Oxygen
« Reply #97 on: May 15, 2013, 11:19:33 PM »
You sure talk a lot for someone that is done.

I understand far me than you do, dweeblet. I understand that you and Arlo are both attempting to manipulate the game in order to favor your own style of gameplay. That's all anyone needs to understand.

@Arlo, what it means is that you are trying to accelerate a losing argument based on false assumptions, and then trying to remove the possibility of rebuttal by citing frequency as a weak standpoint. You have no argument that favors your position stronger than manipulation. So go with that.

How ironical.  Lighten up, Francis. :D

Offline colmbo

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Re: Oxygen
« Reply #98 on: May 16, 2013, 12:40:23 AM »
Anything below 15k is not going to do anything but get you headace. Turning at 4g prolonged at 15k might..



Depends. Had a B24 copilot get hypoxia enough that she dropped the flight suit and peed in front of several pax, didn't remember a thing.  Had been at only 13k for 1-2 hours. She was fine in the seat but getting up and walking to the tail did her in.
Columbo

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Fate whispers to the warrior "You cannot withstand the storm" and the warrior whispers back "I AM THE STORM"

Offline save

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Re: Oxygen
« Reply #99 on: May 16, 2013, 02:20:10 AM »
Agreed, That could be the difference, sitting strapped is one thing, walking around another. Trikes and fighters are kinda hard to take a walk in....
Also we stayed at 12k for less than 30 minutes.

 My friend claimed he was up to 21k once in a trike... had a mirror to check if his lips went blue .... :eek:
My ammo last for 6 Lancasters, or one Yak3.
"And the Yak 3 ,aka the "flying Yamato"..."
-Caldera

Offline Chalenge

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Re: Oxygen
« Reply #100 on: May 16, 2013, 02:26:47 AM »
How ironical.  Lighten up, Francis. :D

That's what I thought. I got nothing.
If you like the Sick Puppy Custom Sound Pack the please consider contributing for future updates by sending a months dues to Hitech Creations for account "Chalenge." Every little bit helps.

Offline Arlo

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Re: Oxygen
« Reply #101 on: May 16, 2013, 08:31:51 AM »
That's what I thought. I got nothing.

Exactly. I agree.  :aok

Offline icepac

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Re: Oxygen
« Reply #102 on: May 16, 2013, 09:06:41 AM »
Even at 30,000 feet, you don't instantly pass out when oxygen supply stops.

If that were the case, I wouldn't be dining on delicious lobster during the mini-season.

Offline Arlo

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Re: Oxygen
« Reply #103 on: May 16, 2013, 09:10:45 AM »
Even at 30,000 feet, you don't instantly pass out when oxygen supply stops.

If that were the case, I wouldn't be dining on delicious lobster during the mini-season.

Ok ... 1 or 2 minutes of average effective performance time.  :cool:

http://www.c-f-c.com/supportdocs/abo4.htm

Average Effective Performance Time for flying
personnel without supplemental oxygen:

15,000 to 18,000 feet ..........30 minutes or more

22,000 feet ............................. ..5 to 10 minutes

25,000 feet ............................. ....3 to 5 minutes

28,000 feet......................... ...2 1/2 to 3 minutes

30,000 feet ............................. ....1 to 2 minutes

35,000 feet ............................3 0 to 60 seconds

40,000 feet ............................1 5 to 20 seconds

45,000 feet ............................. .9 to 15 seconds

Offline muzik

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Re: Oxygen
« Reply #104 on: May 16, 2013, 07:07:45 PM »
I got nothing.

Finally, you get something right.


15,000 to 18,000 feet ..........30 minutes or more

22,000 feet ............................. ..5 to 10 minutes

25,000 feet ............................. ....3 to 5 minutes

28,000 feet......................... ...2 1/2 to 3 minutes

30,000 feet ............................. ....1 to 2 minutes

35,000 feet ............................3 0 to 60 seconds

40,000 feet ............................1 5 to 20 seconds

45,000 feet ............................. .9 to 15 seconds


OMG, what are you thinking? With these kinds of numbers, you just turned all chanllenged's arguments into a non issue. Do you realize how much time I wasted for nothing?

Good job though. Hitech likes numbers he don't have to look up.
Fear? You bet your life...but that all leaves you as you reach combat. Then there's a sense of great excitement, a thrill you can't duplicate anywhere...it's actually fun. Yes, I think it is the most exciting fun in the world. — Lt. Col. Robert B. "Westy" Westbrook, USAAF 6/<--lol@mod