Combat Trim.. What does it 'Do' ??

[Karnak]

It will cripple the Ki-84 as well.

I think it works well for the Spitfire.

[ink]

It will cripple the Ki-84 as well.

I think it works well for the Spitfire.

really

you mean having it on?

I leave it on and pay zero attention to it.....my KI does quite well.

stall limiter ya leave that off, but combat trim isn't enough of a difference IMO

[MADe]

I was gonna start a thread about trims, but maybe jumping in here is OK.

I primarily use CT, but I find myself losing control when I pop flaps or go as slow as others seem to be able to. Always rolling right into the turf.

I have 2 pots set up for aileron and elevator trims, but I just cannot find the balance that works, hence I default to CT. Without it I could not take my hands off the stick. Continued rolling and pitch happens. With manual trims I can eliminate some but not all instability. Do I have to be constantly tweaking these or should I be able to find a sweet spot?
What is the proper use of trims please?
My stick is homebuilt, full scale spitfire set up, so I have a lot more range of motion than a standard desktop stick. I luv the stick but certain nuances are escaping me when it comes to the minor adjustments.
Only a desktop pilot so go ez on me.

[WW1965]

Wow!! great replies & thanx to you all for replying.. 
FYI - I've got all but the rudder trim set to dials on my x52.. rudder trim is on a hat switch,.. also CT on/off is mapped.. 'set trim xxx' is a great idea.. thx for that..
I also didn't know that CT was incremental.. makes sense now that I think about it.. also explains the nose bouncing..

MADe said -> I primarily use CT, but I find myself losing control when I pop flaps or go as slow as others seem to be able to. Always rolling right into the turf.

yup that's me sir, & any kind of bad behavior the plane might have comes out very quickly, & is fatal down on the deck..

Karnak said-> It will cripple the Ki-84 as well. I think it works well for the Spitfire.
And then Ink said-> really? you mean having it on? I leave it on and pay zero attention to it.....my KI does quite well. stall limiter ya leave that off, but combat trim isn't enough of a difference IMO

just goes to show its the man & not the plane..    one reason I love this game.. 

Hap said-> for now, leave it on. When you have time, go offline.  Scream straight down till you're shaking like a rag doll.  Mash on the K key.  Have your E6B open.  K trims up.  I trims down.  Play with that for a little with a few planes offline.

I will do this.. thanx

I'm hearing a lot from the 38 drivers (<S!>) which is just my luck cuz I suck in it.. but what you guys are saying makes sense.. Ki84 & 109 drivers seem to agree..
Use the CT for the mundane, but when the tension/speeds starts up/down outside of the mundane, turn CT off & tweek the manual trim..

off to practice..
Thanx again all for the replies..

W-W

[FLS]

I was gonna start a thread about trims, but maybe jumping in here is OK.

I primarily use CT, but I find myself losing control when I pop flaps or go as slow as others seem to be able to. Always rolling right into the turf.

I have 2 pots set up for aileron and elevator trims, but I just cannot find the balance that works, hence I default to CT. Without it I could not take my hands off the stick. Continued rolling and pitch happens. With manual trims I can eliminate some but not all instability. Do I have to be constantly tweaking these or should I be able to find a sweet spot?
What is the proper use of trims please?
My stick is homebuilt, full scale spitfire set up, so I have a lot more range of motion than a standard desktop stick. I luv the stick but certain nuances are escaping me when it comes to the minor adjustments.
Only a desktop pilot so go ez on me.

The primary use of trim is to allow straight and level flight without holding the stick. When you set trim you are setting it for your current speed. When your speed changes you need to change the trim. Combat trim changes the trim according to your speed. It's not as precise as manual trim but it's close enough. You can also use auto pilot to set trim at cruising speed and that will be a generally useful setting but since you have 2 controllers set to manually trim your ailerons and elevator you will default to the manual settings whenever you turn combat trim or auto pilot off.
If you note the position of the trim tab indicators in the cockpit you will see the correct position for cruising speed and you can match those settings with your manual trim settings when you turn auto pilot off.

[Drano]

I'm a P-38 driver and agree with the others it's best left off in that bird. I'll use it as a sort of "quick trim", toggling it on then off in order to center up at a given speed, then usually tapping elevator down trim a few notches as I prefer it that way. If left on what happens is it wants to give you elevator up trim at slow speeds causing you to fight the nose down. At higher speeds, such as in a dive, I'm actively on the elevator trim the whole time anyway. On that note if you're using the dive recovery flap on the 38-L, combat trim will tend to negate its pitch up action as it's trimming nose down more and more as speed increases.

[MADe]

OK,
Thing is about manual trim, my speed is constantly changing. Only time my speed is consistant is on way to target or climbing to alt.
When in attack mode how do you approach trim?
I mean that when fighting your constantly popping flaps on/off, looping, scissoring. Speed is changing constantly. I find I can really only be a B&Z pilot because of my in ability to turn with others at slow speeds, they always turn tighter.
Also how much does trimming change when carrying ordnance or with a full tank?

[The Fugitive]

OK,
Thing is about manual trim, my speed is constantly changing. Only time my speed is consistant is on way to target or climbing to alt.
When in attack mode how do you approach trim?
I mean that when fighting your constantly popping flaps on/off, looping, scissoring. Speed is changing constantly. I find I can really only be a B&Z pilot because of my in ability to turn with others at slow speeds, they always turn tighter.
Also how much does trimming change when carrying ordnance or with a full tank?

It depends on what you fly. If Im flying a TnB type plane I'll set my nose low a bit at 250-300 and trim there. For a zoomer type I trim the same way but for 300-350. At those speeds I don't get the effects of getting stuck in the air, but still maintain some sability of my plane.

[Karnak]

really

you mean having it on?

I leave it on and pay zero attention to it.....my KI does quite well.

stall limiter ya leave that off, but combat trim isn't enough of a difference IMO

Ki-84 cannot pull enough Gs to blackout at 400mph if CT is on.  If you can only pull 3Gs and your enemy can pull 6Gs he can turn inside of you before you get your speed down enough to match him.  Turning it off fixes that, or at least significantly raises the speed at which it becomes an issue.

[Rodent57]

Not to quibble too much here, but I just upped a KI-84:

Initial conditions were... 1/2 bag of gas, 400IAS, 15K and 10K runs:

RESULTS:

Combat Trim turned ON
= 5.2 Gs at 400IAS
= 6.0 Gs at 375(ish)
= 6.8 Gs at 330 or so ... things were kinda hard to see at that point

Combat Trim turned OFF
= 6.0 Gs at 400IAS
= 6.8 Gs at 350(ish)... things were kinda hard to see at that point

....

My conclusions (off only 4 data runs in KI-84):

1) COMBAT TRIM=OFF gives you a very slight initial G advantage (It doesn't last long)
2) COMBAT TRIM=ON denies you a very slight aerodynamic advantage in terms of pure trim, BUT generally speaking relieves you of the burden of having to constantly trim for optimum flight.

...

Like INK, I personally have it on {almost always} and find very little negative effect.  For most fighting conditions, the pluses outweigh the minuses.

If you need the extra knot or two on a Dash  (polite way to say run away or run down), consider learning how to trim manually.

- Rodent57

[Karnak]

Try it at 450.

The faster you go the bigger the initial advantage.

[Rodent57]

Karnak Sir,

You are correct ... you can max perform the plane more readily with COMBAT TRIM = OFF.

At 450IAS there is absolutely no problem slapping 6 Gs+ onto yourself in a KI-84 with COMBAT TRIM=OFF.  As a matter of truth I, KO'd myself 3 out of 4 times by not releasing backstick pressure quickly enough while testing COMBAT TRIM=OFF.

Whereas it ain't gonna happen nearly so often with COMBAT TRIM=ON

....

My flight test showed (Level Turn):

COMBAT TRIM = OFF
Starting at 450IAS (15K') you can pull roughly 7.6 instantaneous Gs, which rapidly settle down to about 5.8-6 Gs [Rate = 16.2 degrees/Sec, Radius of turn = 2328']

- at the 18 sec point you are at 375IAS and 6.3 Gs [Rate = 20.9 degrees/Sec, Radius of turn = 1511']
- at the 22 sec point you are at 345IAS and 6.8 Gs [Rate = 24.5 degrees/Sec, Radius of turn = 1183']
- at the 26 sec point you are at 335IAS and 2.5 Gs (and blacked out) [Rate = 8.6 degrees/Sec, Radius of turn = 3274']
- at the 35 sec point you are at 380IAS and 6.0 Gs (80 degrees nose low attitude, recovering, having now regained consciousness ... it seemed a lot longer than 10 secs BTW) [Rate = 16.2 degrees/Sec, Radius of turn = 1970'] * NOTE This is an effective 5G turn at the bottom of the energy egg


************************************
COMBAT TRIM = ON
Starting at 450IAS (15K') you can pull roughly 5.8 instantaneous Gs which rapidly settle down to about 5 Gs [Rate = 13.7 degrees/Sec, Radius of turn = 2763']

- at the 18 sec point you are at 390IAS and 5.2 Gs [Rate = 16.5 degrees/Sec, Radius of turn = 1992']
- at the 22 sec point you are at 380IAS and 5.6 Gs [Rate = 18.2 degrees/Sec, Radius of turn = 1752']
- at the 26 sec point you are at 355IAS and 6.0 Gs [Rate = 21.0 degrees/Sec, Radius of turn = 1424']
- at the 35 sec point you are at 340IAS and 6.2 Gs [Rate = 22.6 degrees/Sec, Radius of turn = 1263']
- at the 40 sec point you are at 310IAS and 6.5 Gs [Rate = 26.0 degrees/Sec, Radius of turn = 1000']...(and at the black out point)

...

Now obviously, a more skilled COMBAT TRIM=OFF player probably wouldn't put knock himself out as easily (or as often) as I did ...

then again, I found maintaining control easier with COMBAT TRIM = ON.

...

If I had been fighting me, 'COMBAT TRIM=OFF me' would have been winning the rate/radius fight for the first 22 secs (having gained somewhere around 105 degrees on 'COMBAT TRIM=ON me' and with an inside position-- assuming we met 180 out to start the fight, and fought a level turn fight--which would be silly to do) .... then depression set in as I went to sleep and 'COMBAT TRIM=ON me' rapidly regained angles (200 or so), while 'COMBAT TRIM=OFF me' napped.

...

In conclusion:  The purist in me agrees that COMBAT TRIM = OFF is the better technical solution if you are skilled enough to take advantage of it. 

For the rest of us, I still endorse COMBAT TRIM=ON for most scenarios.

<S>

-Rodent57

[Wiley]

Hmp...  So the net effect is a slight bit of damping.  I may have to put in the time to learn to turn it off somewhat sooner.

Great info, Rodent.  Thanks for putting in the time.

Wiley.

[Babalonian]

Rodent pointed out some great stuff.  It takes regular practice before getting used to like most things, when best to bother inputting manual trim in combat and when its best ot leave it be.  Start with flat or vertical turns and adding more up elevator... it does "help" but to a point, in the end it all boils down to exercising some caution as you will have to contend with blacking out and in some instances ripping parts of your own plane off.

[Karnak]

Thanks for posting the hard numbers, Rodent.

<S>


I'll admit I thought it was a bigger difference than it is.  It sure felt like a bigger difference when I switched it.