Using the TBM-3 in Coral Sea setups

[pops57]

I'm on the list for a TBM kill and I did get the credit. It took two other guys pressing attacks to finish it. It also was able to survive long enough to have released it's ord. The Zero is fast enough to catch it by not by much, roughly 2% faster at sea level.  You get a drawn out chase if no alt advantage at start, this would not be the case using the other torp. plane. The comparatively heavy armor and fire power makes a defensive and offensive skew that does affect the battle. The extra time one has to spend chasing and chewing up the TBM shortens your time elsewhere, plain and simple. The TBM is no SBD but it is much more capable than the other available bird which is undeniably far more correct for capability in this battle time frame. Paint it up allied and use it. My two cents worth. pops57 out.

P.S. Just to be clear I love this game and DO appreciate the hard work and dedication of all those hard working folks that make it the fun game it is!  I'm not going anywhere whether a change is made or it stays as is. This is just a point to discuss.

[Triton28]

Before we start planning my death match with Fester and kappa, I'd really like to hear someone explain how the TBM's awesome firepower, toughness, speed won the day for the Allies.

[pops57]

Not sure anyone is saying that Triton but please reread my earlier post I believe I laid it out reasonably well.  Simple logic suggests that a faster more heavily armed and armored plane will have some effect in a game scenario. I have flown against both axis and allied torp planes and can say for me and my limited skill level I kill the axis bird much faster far more often than the other way around.

[Shifty]

Before we start planning my death match with Fester and kappa, I'd really like to hear someone explain how the TBM's awesome firepower, toughness, speed won the day for the Allies.

Nahh let's plan the death match!   

[perdue3]

Before we start planning my death match with Fester and kappa, I'd really like to hear someone explain how the TBM's awesome firepower, toughness, speed won the day for the Allies.

The fact is, the torpedo bombers of Coral Sea and Midway were not the problem for the IJN. The SBD's were. I understand 100% accuracy is impossible but how about a little bit more than a late 44 ride going up against an early 39 design fighter? This is a very simple, cut and dried problem with a just as easy solution. I dont understand what is so difficult about it. Mainly what I am hearing is "it is not blue." That, I am sorry, is a poor excuse.

I am being very open here and am actually reaching out for another reason for the TBM-3 to remain in Coral Sea and Midway setups.

[SIK1]

The TBM was at Midway. Granted it was a -1, and there were only a few but it was there.

[Devil 505]

From the Logs, it seems the TBMs got chewed up pretty good, don't sound like much of a performance difference being its a late war ride, compared to some other aircrafts that get subbed in for like above.
If anything, have the TBM's fly at cruise speed and all you got is a beefed up Devastator with 50 cals replacing the 30 cals- they are still dead meat to a zero.

sounds more like a lack of proper cic resource implementation (flashbacks of inept military officers) than specs on included aircraft. the a6m2 is more than fast enough to catch the tbm3, if someone was dumb enough to put d3a's in as cap over cv groups, then the axis got screwed by ineptitude.

let me refer you to the logs:

My plan for frame 3 had the minimum numbers of attackers and as many as possible on defense. The actual numbers were 48 attackers (32 B5N and 16 D3A) and 107 defenders (70 A6M2 and 37 D3A).
The TBMs that attacked dove in from 20K hitting over 520 mph. They flew over the carrier in their dive then pulled a 180 degree turn to bleed their speed to get under 200mph and dropped their torps.  Fortunately for us defenders, that turn was still in the ack coverage of the boats. They spent too much time in the ack and got swarmed the defenders in the ack. That is why 24 0f 28 TBM's died in frame 3. Had they employed the same diving tactic but stayed out of the ack, the result would have been much different.
The TBM I killed made further mistakes by not dropping his torp, then pulling another 180 to get away from the boats. I dounced him at a blistering 280mph, but he was going only 150 in that second turn. I peppered him and he tried to maneuver hard but spun it into the drink.
 

You can see clearly the speed differential between the TBM and any IJN aircraft. Simply put, there is no possible way to catch TBM's until after they drop. Propper defense is IMPOSSIBLE against TBMs. I'd also suggest a 5K alt cap for ALL torpedo aircraft. The current way of running this setup is FAR from historically accurate.

[CAP1]

I think its more along the lines of its the closest plane we have that carries a torpedo in the pacific theater that resembles the Devastator, I'd like to see what CAP says on this.

The BF-110C gets to replace the Ki-45 (in which I think is overkill in terms of performance and gun package)
The Ki-61 also replaces something else, oh and the Ki-43 was always flown as the A6m5 until we finally got the Ki-43 which is a nice trade since the A6m5 was overkill vs early war rides.
Ki-67 replaces.... G3m? Ki-48 sally? Not sure on this one since the Ki-67 was a late war only plane.

From the Logs, it seems the TBMs got chewed up pretty good, don't sound like much of a performance difference being its a late war ride, compared to some other aircrafts that get subbed in for like above.
If anything, have the TBM's fly at cruise speed and all you got is a beefed up Devastator with 50 cals replacing the 30 cals- they are still dead meat to a zero.

 the bold part just about nails it. i know the -3 has better performance than the '42 versions, and the death trap known as the devastator. if i could (as mentioned previously) nerf the avenger to have brought its performance close to the devastator, i would have. BUT.......i'm a farking geek/nerd with this stuff. i start going off the deep end trying to do little details, and generally one of the other design cm's has to reel me in a bit.

 i canno make myself assign(for instance) theb5n to the USN, and ruin that immersion factor when a USN pilot sees the meatball on his wing, and sees it on his squadmates aircraft.

 conversely, i could not, and would not sub in a German aircraft for a Japanese one, or an allied aircraft for a Japanese aircraft, but rather will mess with numbers.

 the first frame was a slaughter against the IJN, so i adjusted down the number of f4f's for the USN. this forced the allied CiC to have to be more prudent with his assignments, and gave a bit of a numbers advantage to the IJN, in my opinion at least slightly offsetting the performance discrepancies of the avenger.

 to me, this is about getting as close as we can in our cartoon world to the real thing, and making it so that you can get the heart pounding moment as you try to dive through the defensive CAP, or in other sets, as you're stalking that straggler that's falling out of the bomber stream, or being a gunner on one of those bombers, watching the fighters circling, planning their attack. i truly feel that THIS is what most all of you guys in FSO like too, and try my best(as we all do) to make them fun.

 last frame, our squad "threaded" the needle, as we flew in between radar zones, and avoided flashing strats. we split up, and started looking for the shokaku. when she was reported, we all converged on that location as her coordinates were called out to the other inbound attacks groups. THAT had my heart pumping, especially when i had to dive through high alt CAP, only to find that there was also a lower alt CAP in place too. that forced me to rush my aim a bit, and my bomb didn't do much damage, but i like to feel that i helped move some of the defensive CAP out of position for the inbound attacks.

 THAT's what makes these fun i think.

 EDIT:::::

 i suppose i could sub in a zeek3 for the zeek2, to even that up a bit........

[Butcher]

My plan for frame 3 had the minimum numbers of attackers and as many as possible on defense. The actual numbers were 48 attackers (32 B5N and 16 D3A) and 107 defenders (70 A6M2 and 37 D3A).
The TBMs that attacked dove in from 20K hitting over 520 mph. They flew over the carrier in their dive then pulled a 180 degree turn to bleed their speed to get under 200mph and dropped their torps.  Fortunately for us defenders, that turn was still in the ack coverage of the boats. They spent too much time in the ack and got swarmed the defenders in the ack. That is why 24 0f 28 TBM's died in frame 3. Had they employed the same diving tactic but stayed out of the ack, the result would have been much different.
The TBM I killed made further mistakes by not dropping his torp, then pulling another 180 to get away from the boats. I dounced him at a blistering 280mph, but he was going only 150 in that second turn. I peppered him and he tried to maneuver hard but spun it into the drink.
 

You can see clearly the speed differential between the TBM and any IJN aircraft. Simply put, there is no possible way to catch TBM's until after they drop. Propper defense is IMPOSSIBLE against TBMs. I'd also suggest a 5K alt cap for ALL torpedo aircraft. The current way of running this setup is FAR from historically accurate.

Now you actually make sense for once, first I thought this was another Axis vs Allied whine. I agree TBM's should NOT be over 6k - having them fly at 20k is simply bending the odds a little to unfair using this tactic. I was under the assumption they would be flying under 5k or closest to the deck possible, given any typical planning if you are going to carry a torpedo.

This is just gaming the game, just as every Zero ive ever seen in these scenarios climb to some 30k where wildcats struggle to get anywhere near that (in past frames). With the wind being a factor now I haven't seen what the latest cap has been.

Clearly there needs to be a CAP on the alt for all torpedo bombers, unless Kates are doing level bombing.

[Triton28]

Not sure anyone is saying that Triton but please reread my earlier post I believe I laid it out reasonably well.  Simple logic suggests that a faster more heavily armed and armored plane will have some effect in a game scenario. I have flown against both axis and allied torp planes and can say for me and my limited skill level I kill the axis bird much faster far more often than the other way around.

I'm tracking you Pops.  I'm honestly interested in hearing if the upgraded performance of the TBM's really impacted the outcome of this FSO.  I offered an example of why I don't think it did, and that was met with a dismissal, a DA match suggestion, and Ruah getting offended because he thinks I meant to say he sucks.  For the record, that's not what I meant.  It was simple a scenario where we were run down by Zero's, forced to try to "engage" when we had superior numbers, and came out with our butts stinging.  That doesn't scream lopsided performance advantage to me.  Certainly, Fester and kappa being the two Zero's had an impact, but I was there... they didn't kill us with a series of one ping pilot would sniper kills or haxxxor black magik.  They're good pilots in fighters flying against torpedo bombers.  In hindsight, the outcome was pretty predictable.  I was just dumb enough to think we had a shot for a minute.

To me, the TBM is the logical sub for the TBD.  It's the successor to the TBD.  If the performance gap is uncomfortable for the Axis, I would suggest what Hightone said and give the Axis a later model Zero.  Would that make the Axis rest easy before the next Coral Sea? 

     

[Devil 505]

i canno make myself assign(for instance) theb5n to the USN, and ruin that immersion factor when a USN pilot sees the meatball on his wing, and sees it on his squadmates aircraft.

So, you'd rather ruin the immersion for the ENTIRE axis side because of a poor substitution on the grounds of aesthetics?

[CAP1]

So, you'd rather ruin the immersion for the ENTIRE axis side because of a poor substitution on the grounds of aesthetics?

 i don't think it does/did. your tactics proved that with sinking the lexington with only THREE torp. bombers. and one of those guys made it to a land bast to at least have one member land safely.

 i do the best i can. i wouldn't sub an allied aircraft into the IJN either.

[Butcher]

last frame, our squad "threaded" the needle, as we flew in between radar zones, and avoided flashing strats. we split up, and started looking for the shokaku. when she was reported, we all converged on that location as her coordinates were called out to the other inbound attacks groups. THAT had my heart pumping, especially when i had to dive through high alt CAP, only to find that there was also a lower alt CAP in place too. that forced me to rush my aim a bit, and my bomb didn't do much damage, but i like to feel that i helped move some of the defensive CAP out of position for the inbound attacks.

 THAT's what makes these fun i think.

I got a great chance to fly with VF-17 in my first FSO back after a year break of flying. I was happy as a clam to fly an SBD, frankly I couldnt care what plane I was given or what side. I was one of the "you have a bomb, but you can ditch it if you want" crew. I decided to keep it, although a dozen zeros above 20k decided they were going to bounce us, as all combat in aces high and real life - I found myself alone after 3 minutes of dodging zeros. After 5 minutes of flying around, I found a flattop on fire and pressed my dive without flaps. Sadly 3 zeros decided to dive with me, I aimed just ahead (from the rear) of the ship and nailed her. On my way out of the area I noticed 3 SBDs in a wild dogfight with 6 zeros. I engaged and bagged 4 while sending the 5th home with an oil leak.

I would bet a year subscription right now I never imagined this sortie, first one back and I actually have something to show for it. It was a reckless, fun, adrenaline rush that makes that hour long flight home well worth that 5 minutes of enjoyment.

/I really did hate that hour flight home though - sorry allies you screwed the pooch when the CV's got sunk

[perdue3]

i canno make myself assign(for instance) theb5n to the USN, and ruin that immersion factor when a USN pilot sees the meatball on his wing, and sees it on his squadmates aircraft.

Is this guy serious?

You have GOT to be kidding me. How about all of us freaking Zero's trying to kill THE EASIEST TARGET IN THE WHOLE FREAKING CORAL PACIFIC (TBD Devastator) but wait, we have traveled in time to November of 1944 and cant catch it!!!!! So we have 2 options:

Option A: Keep the TBM-3 as the substitute for the TBD-1 Devastator and force the whole Axis to lose immersion. Not to mention throw accuracy out the window with this 206mph for 275mph crap.

Option B: Change the TBM-3 to the B5N Kate and give the Axis a killable target as the F4F's have now (and as it should be!) and the everyone loses immersion.


Either way CAP, there is no way to design this event in an accurate manner when it comes to plane set. Pick a lesser evil and use it. That goes for all designers. Believe me I will choose the plane of closer performance for a substitution before I choose a plane that is the same damn color.

[perdue3]

At any rate, CAP has answered my question and I do not feel the need to pursue this. It is obvious that having the same insignia is more important than an abundance in upgrade.

I thought I made a good case Thank you all for your input and opinions.