Roll Rates

[earl1937]

  My BIG wish is for Aces High to slow down the roll rate of the aircraft in the game! I see things in here all the time, that if you did it in a "real" aircraft, you would become a "lawn" dart very quickly. Of course, I realize this is a video game and is designed for the pleasure of many different skill level players. Another way they could slow down some of these wild gyrations of aircraft in a furball, is to black out the pilot when he exceeds a certain standard of roll rate. Of course this wish comes from my desire for AH to make the "game" a little more realistic in the flight characteristics of aircraft, but that is probably asking to much.
A good example of "can't be done" is when a "bandit" is on my six, 1.0k back and I start a loop, and while I am inverted at the top, I look down and the guy chasing me does what looks like a 90 degree change in direction to the vertical, catches me slow and on my back, shoots me down...He should have accelerate stalled his aircraft doing that and snap rolled down. If it was a "real" aircraft, he would have started a loop also to chase me, and while inverted on my back and slow, pop 50% flaps, do a left hand 360 degree turn and come out on his six or catch him inverted and shoot him down. A lot of aircraft were shot down  in WW2 and Korea, using that tactic!

[gyrene81]

what makes you think the roll rates are not accurate? i'm asking because you're going to get some guys in this discussion that have done the research...

A good example of "can't be done" is when a "bandit" is on my six, 1.0k back and I start a loop, and while I am inverted at the top, I look down and the guy chasing me does what looks like a 90 degree change in direction to the vertical, catches me slow and on my back, shoots me down...He should have accelerate stalled his aircraft doing that and snap rolled down. If it was a "real" aircraft, he would have started a loop also to chase me, and while inverted on my back and slow, pop 50% flaps, do a left hand 360 degree turn and come out on his six or catch him inverted and shoot him down. A lot of aircraft were shot down  in WW2 and Korea, using that tactic!

what you describe there has nothing to do with roll rate. if there is a 1000 yard gap, and you go into a loop or a hammerhead, i'm not going to follow you into the loop. if i can, while you're going up i'll close the gap then go vertical under you while you're stalling out at the top. if i've timed it correctly, you will be in my sights long enough for me to shoot you down. there are other tactics that can be accomplished to counter a loop maneuver and come out on the winning end as well.

[earl1937]

what makes you think the roll rates are not accurate? i'm asking because you're going to get some guys in this discussion that have done the research...

what you describe there has nothing to do with roll rate. if there is a 1000 yard gap, and you go into a loop or a hammerhead, i'm not going to follow you into the loop. if i can, while you're going up i'll close the gap then go vertical under you while you're stalling out at the top. if i've timed it correctly, you will be in my sights long enough for me to shoot you down. there are other tactics that can be accomplished to counter a loop maneuver and come out on the winning end as well.

Appreciate your comment, but with all the wild gyrations I see in here, roll rates can't be very accurate! You are right about different ways to combat a loop/360degree maneuver in this game, but you can't do it in a real aircraft and that, sir, is my point! In a real aircraft, to do the maneuver that I have seen many do, you would accurate stall the aircraft.

[hitech]

One  film would be worth far more then this entire thread.

And you may find that the roll rates are far more accurate then you believe.

HiTech

[Arlo]

Appreciate your comment, but with all the wild gyrations I see in here, roll rates can't be very accurate! You are right about different ways to combat a loop/360degree maneuver in this game, but you can't do it in a real aircraft and that, sir, is my point! In a real aircraft, to do the maneuver that I have seen many do, you would accurate stall the aircraft.

Are you sure you're not seeing a snap spin and not a controlled roll? Is that, perhaps, what you wish to address?

[gyrene81]

Appreciate your comment, but with all the wild gyrations I see in here, roll rates can't be very accurate!

you might want to do a search, probably in the aircraft and vehicles section. there have been a lot of discussions on roll rates and as far as i can remember from the last convo i looked at, they are very close to accurate, especially the 190s. a high roll rate doesn't necessarily allow for "wild gyrations".

You are right about different ways to combat a loop/360degree maneuver in this game, but you can't do it in a real aircraft and that, sir, is my point! In a real aircraft, to do the maneuver that I have seen many do, you would accurate stall the aircraft.

yes you can. what i described was pulling an immelmann against your loop.

here, a p51d pulling an immelmann, cuban 8 and split s...camera view from the tail.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAPQKqJf7wQ

[earl1937]

you might want to do a search, probably in the aircraft and vehicles section. there have been a lot of discussions on roll rates and as far as i can remember from the last convo i looked at, they are very close to accurate, especially the 190s. a high roll rate doesn't necessarily allow for "wild gyrations".

yes you can. what i described was pulling an immelmann against your loop.

here, a p51d pulling an immelmann, cuban 8 and split s...camera view from the tail.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAPQKqJf7wQ

With having taught aerobatics for roughly 3 years, almost full time, I think I know what a aircraft maneuver looks like and how to do them...If you do your immelmann turn, trying to counter my loop/360 maneuver, I think I would kill you 8 out of 10 times..my problem is 79 year old eyes, 1 with 10% vision and the other one is OK, but depth perception is erratic at best...that's why I fly bombers 98% of the time in the game!

[earl1937]

One  film would be worth far more then this entire thread.

And you may find that the roll rates are far more accurate then you believe.

HiTech

Guess you are right, maybe the trouble is the "sticks" we use in the game allowing people to make such rapid changes in directions.

[earl1937]

Are you sure you're not seeing a snap spin and not a controlled roll? Is that, perhaps, what you wish to address?

Not at all! A snap "roll" is a controlled maneuver, but an accelerated stall, with an spin is not controlled, until the AOA recovers enough for the flight controls to become effective again. Next time you are flying in the game, try this: In order not to damage your "stick", slow the aircraft, say a LA-7 to minimum controllable airspeed, then abruptly pull the stick all the way back to "accelerate" the impending stall and see what happens. An accelerated stall is when the AOA of the wing exceeds the design limits of the wing lifting capability. This can be done at almost any speed, the faster the IAS, the more violent the resulting stall.

[gyrene81]

With having taught aerobatics for roughly 3 years, almost full time, I think I know what a aircraft maneuver looks like and how to do them...If you do your immelmann turn, trying to counter my loop/360 maneuver, I think I would kill you 8 out of 10 times..my problem is 79 year old eyes, 1 with 10% vision and the other one is OK, but depth perception is erratic at best...that's why I fly bombers 98% of the time in the game!

lol, well then having taught aerobatics you understand timing, and in combat timing is everything. while you're bleeding off energy trying to pull the loop, depending on the plane your opponent is flying, he should be maintaing energy long enough to get under you. and while you're pretty much stalled out at the top of the loop, you're opponent would be beginning to bleed off energy pulling the nose up to line your airplane up in the sights and get a shot off before he stalls out at the top of the immelmann. of course, if he hasn't carried enough energy into his maneuver, he could stall out prematurely and end up in your sights flopping like a fish out of water. following someone into a loop is just asking to get shot down. it would probably be wiser to pull a chandelle then maybe a split s to get on you, rather than an immelmann, depending on the situation of course.

[earl1937]

lol, well then having taught aerobatics you understand timing, and in combat timing is everything. while you're bleeding off energy trying to pull the loop, depending on the plane your opponent is flying, he should be maintaing energy long enough to get under you. and while you're pretty much stalled out at the top of the loop, you're opponent would be beginning to bleed off energy pulling the nose up to line your airplane up in the sights and get a shot off before he stalls out at the top of the immelmann. of course, if he hasn't carried enough energy into his maneuver, he could stall out prematurely and end up in your sights flopping like a fish out of water. following someone into a loop is just asking to get shot down. it would probably be wiser to pull a chandelle then maybe a split s to get on you, rather than an immelmann, depending on the situation of course.

Appreciate your comments, but, if u do a split S, sir, you would be going towards the ground, not climbing up to attack me! LOL In a Chandell, you would be hanging in the sky like a leaf on a tree, don't understand how you think that would be the correct thing to do.

[Arlo]

... like a leaf on a tree ....

[Karnak]

Well, the roll rates match the NACA chart for the aircraft that are on it (P-38 w/boosted ailerons, P-39, P-40, P-47, P-51, Spitfire (clipped and unclipped), Fw190, Typhoon and A6M (maybe plus some I forgot)) so I don't know what can be done.  Rolling an aircraft doesn't cause blackouts, so making it do so in the game would be highly unrealistic.  I agree there are maneuvers being pulled in game that couldn't be done in reality, but I don't think the roll rates are the culprit.

[muzik]

then abruptly pull the stick all the way back to "accelerate" the impending stall

I think I follow what you are saying Earl, but 1000 feet of separation is plenty of time for me to pull slowly back and if timed right, catch you at the top of your loop. Although At that point I would be very low on airspeed myself and if I missed I wouldn't be in a great position.

I never yank or even "abruptly" pull let alone when I have 1k feet to take my time in the pull.

As for the roll rate, I think sometimes lag has a little to do with how unnatural it looks to you.

[coombz]

HiTech's sig seems pretty apt here