Author Topic: Roll Rates  (Read 1218 times)

Offline RedBull1

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2769
Re: Roll Rates
« Reply #30 on: May 30, 2013, 03:05:50 PM »
:salute To all who responded to this thread! Didn't mean to start a fuss, its just that I see things in this game, if executed in a real aircraft, would be a blacked out pilot, or lose both wings and become a lawn dart. Maybe I just asked the wrong question...again, as always, just trying to post suggestions to improve the game and help Hi Tech pick up customers. Some of the guys I play in here with are starting to play a new game,(won't mention the name), because the aircraft are more realistic in flight than in AH. I realize that the size of the servers would limit the number of players who could play at one time, but I personally believe there is a vast reservoir of new players that would be in the game, but after a two week trail, a lot of them are moving on, looking for that realistic flight sim.
For WWII flight sims this is the most realistic (Flight Model wise) I think most of us have ever come across...What's the name of this game that has a more realistic FM than Aces High and how so?
"There is absolutely no point discussing anything on the BBS, it's mostly populated by people who are right about everything, no one listens and everyone is just talking. People will argue over the shape of an egg." -Anonymous

Offline ink

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11274
Re: Roll Rates
« Reply #31 on: May 30, 2013, 03:55:15 PM »
For WWII flight sims this is the most realistic (Flight Model wise) I think most of us have ever come across...What's the name of this game that has a more realistic FM than Aces High and how so?

thats what I want to know....


roll rates are great in game....I think Fester summed it up perfectly...

because I am the best there is...........

  you all couldn't fight your way out of a paper bag.......

ill take on anyone of you "real world" pilots and wipe the virtual skies with your pixellated blood......





















 :t





for those that are thin skinned it was a joke........or was it......hahahahahahaheheheheh eheheheohohohhehehehehehahaha

Offline gyrene81

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11629
Re: Roll Rates
« Reply #32 on: May 30, 2013, 04:44:56 PM »
 :rofl  Ink is just bad...  :lol
jarhed  
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. - Terry Pratchett

Offline mthrockmor

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2649
Re: Roll Rates
« Reply #33 on: May 30, 2013, 04:59:05 PM »
Colmbo, do you think the B-17sm B-24s and P-51s you've flown have the same peak performance as they did when first built? I ask because I've read of cables slightly stretching, engine performance slightly less, etc.

Interesting thread.

Boo
No poor dumb bastard wins a war by dying for his country, he wins by making the other poor, dumb, bastard die for his.
George "Blood n Guts" Patton

Offline Wiley

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8086
Re: Roll Rates
« Reply #34 on: May 30, 2013, 05:01:37 PM »
I wasn't going to say anything but I just can't get it out of my head...

Talking about unrealistic 'roll rates' and then proceeding to talk about looping and negative G's...  With terminology usage like that, kinda makes me wonder what his aerobatic students learned.

It's true that the guys in our cockpits are built like the freaking Terminator.  We can pull 5.9 G's all day with no adverse effects.  While modeling the cumulative effects of the kinds of stresses on the body we all put the pilot through on a regular sortie might be more realistic, I'd heavily question whether it would be more fun.  It'd be almost like a permanent pilot wound.

Wiley.
If you think you are having a 1v1 in the Main Arena, your SA has failed you.

JG11

Offline mthrockmor

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2649
Re: Roll Rates
« Reply #35 on: May 30, 2013, 05:05:03 PM »
As for modeling pilot fatigue and stress, not possible. All pilots are in A-1 top shape, having passed their Chapter 1 and 4 physicals. Now, if we hooked up a heart monitor, did a BMI or some other test to all our cartoon pilots most would be flying that C-47 thing.  :banana:

So yes, I chew nails and crap cast iron bricks. That being the case I can pull 7gs all day long baby!!

Boo
No poor dumb bastard wins a war by dying for his country, he wins by making the other poor, dumb, bastard die for his.
George "Blood n Guts" Patton

Offline colmbo

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2246
      • Photos
Re: Roll Rates
« Reply #36 on: May 30, 2013, 07:31:29 PM »
Colmbo, do you think the B-17sm B-24s and P-51s you've flown have the same peak performance as they did when first built? I ask because I've read of cables slightly stretching, engine performance slightly less, etc.

The B-24 and P-51 were both complete rebuilds.  All of them are well maintained so things like control rigging is checked and adjusted as needed.  Once spent an entire morning helping another of our pilots who is also an A&P adjust the throttle cables on the B-17 so that the throttle levers were "synched" throughout the throttle range. (Very unhandy if you have a throttle lever that has to be move differently for the same power setting as other throttles -- gets a bit clumsy). 

As for engine performance today we are somewhat power limited since the only AvGas available is 100LL.  For the B-17 and B-24 we could pull the same power as they did on wartime 100 octane, but the detonation margin is tighter so we didn't (unless we were really scared taking off  :D). The Mustang was limited to 55" MP, wartime was 61 or 62" with WEP being even higher.

With the exception of somewhat limited power today I think the airplanes fly to the same level as a wartime airplane.  Perhaps even a bit better since they are better maintained.

Columbo

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return."

Fate whispers to the warrior "You cannot withstand the storm" and the warrior whispers back "I AM THE STORM"

Offline Citabria

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5149
Re: Roll Rates
« Reply #37 on: May 30, 2013, 08:54:36 PM »
columbo have youflown the b29 in AH?

would you say the b29 flies more like the bombers you have flown in the way it handles? not talking speeds but response of controls and control inputs needed.
Fester was my in game name until September 2013

Offline colmbo

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2246
      • Photos
Re: Roll Rates
« Reply #38 on: May 31, 2013, 06:33:20 AM »
columbo have youflown the b29 in AH?

would you say the b29 flies more like the bombers you have flown in the way it handles? not talking speeds but response of controls and control inputs needed.

Yes I have flown the 29 in game.  The first time I laughed and thought "there's that Boeing aileron response".  I do think there is an issue noticeable with the 29 at speeds below 200 or so.  I have experienced times where after rolling into a bank I was unable to roll back wings level.  There is a noticeable drop in roll rate below a certain speed.  I think what I've experienced might be an issue with the way trim is implemented.

Columbo

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return."

Fate whispers to the warrior "You cannot withstand the storm" and the warrior whispers back "I AM THE STORM"

Offline colmbo

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2246
      • Photos
Re: Roll Rates
« Reply #39 on: May 31, 2013, 08:05:15 AM »
Got interrupted. I work in an ER, GSW came in.

The B-24 has nice ailerons, good roll rate with moderate control forces.  Elevators are very heavy, rudder as well...engine inop flight is a workout.

I like the AH FM for the most part.  All the airplanes are too easy to fly but I guess it is an okay balance between game and sim.  I fly it as a sim, for most part fly as I would in real life.
Columbo

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return."

Fate whispers to the warrior "You cannot withstand the storm" and the warrior whispers back "I AM THE STORM"

Offline earl1937

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2290
Re: Roll Rates
« Reply #40 on: June 01, 2013, 02:00:37 PM »
Yes I have flown the 29 in game.  The first time I laughed and thought "there's that Boeing aileron response".  I do think there is an issue noticeable with the 29 at speeds below 200 or so.  I have experienced times where after rolling into a bank I was unable to roll back wings level.  There is a noticeable drop in roll rate below a certain speed.  I think what I've experienced might be an issue with the way trim is implemented.


:airplane: I also have experienced the problem of returning to level flight after a turn....Have had to use a lot of rudder to help the low wing back to level position. Just like the real one, most of the time, it is in the 30 to 35K range of altitude. They have done a pretty good job of modeling the 29 in the game, except for one thing! When in auto-climb and you start a manual climbing turn, the nose wants to drop way to much. Once you had the real one trimed for level climbing attitude, you could start a turn and the nose wouldn't hardly move down when starting the turn, but would have to apply extra back pressure on elevator to maintain climb attitude. What we usually did, was after setting up desired climb rate, engage auto-pilot, then use turn function to turn to new headings. You would lose a little airspeed doing it that way, because the auto-pilot tried to maintain the desired climb rate. Wasn't much point in making over a "standard rate" turn of 3 degrees per second, at any speed, and the ole bird was quite docile in handling.
In stand board rides, the only thing I ever dreaded was the demonstrated 2 engines out on one side thing! If I remember correctly, 1.5 VSO, plus 15 for the wife and kids, but if you used trim as you should and didn't have much of cross wind, it was a piece of cake. Never did any 2 engine go around at less than 10,000 feet, because of the danger of losing control close to the ground and the stand board check pilot not having enough room to recover before crashing. The trick is when they say "go around" at the 10,000 foot level, you applied smooth full power on both good engines and as much rudder as you could apply to keep wings level and gradually work your way into a climb attitude. Step one, apply full power and wep, raise landing gear, establish a positive rate of climb and start milking flaps up. With full flaps down as in landing config, you were doing good to get a 150 foot per min climb rate, but it depended on your gross weight as what you could establish, and temperature and of course, you were working at 10,000 feet as opposed to working at a lower altitude. They would usually tell you about 200 feet above 10,000 feet that a truck had been disable on runway and you had to go around. The "Puckering" factor when to maximum and if you didn't settle below 10,000 feet doing your go around, you passed.
Sorry guys, didn't mean to ramble! LOL
Blue Skies and wind at my back and wish that for all!!!

Offline Citabria

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5149
Re: Roll Rates
« Reply #41 on: June 01, 2013, 02:04:22 PM »
the b29 flightmodel feels very authentic to me. everything about it screams a seriously heavy aircraft with tons of intertia to overcome to get it to change its direction.
Fester was my in game name until September 2013

Offline Karnak

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23047
Re: Roll Rates
« Reply #42 on: June 01, 2013, 02:09:11 PM »
Not rambling at all.  Very interesting reading, Earl.
Petals floating by,
      Drift through my woman's hand,
             As she remembers me-

Offline kvuo75

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3003
Re: Roll Rates
« Reply #43 on: June 01, 2013, 03:41:43 PM »
When in auto-climb and you start a manual climbing turn, the nose wants to drop way to much. Once you had the real one trimed for level climbing attitude, you could start a turn and the nose wouldn't hardly move down when starting the turn, but would have to apply extra back pressure on elevator to maintain climb attitude.


so why don't you just trim it manually instead of using "auto climb", and see how the flight model behaves in a climbing turn.

you need to compare apples to apples.

I doubt your real B29's had "auto climb" as it is in the game :)
kvuo75

Kill the manned ack.

Offline ink

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11274
Re: Roll Rates
« Reply #44 on: June 01, 2013, 05:03:10 PM »
:airplane: I also have experienced the problem of returning to level flight after a turn....Have had to use a lot of rudder to help the low wing back to level position. Just like the real one, most of the time, it is in the 30 to 35K range of altitude. They have done a pretty good job of modeling the 29 in the game, except for one thing! When in auto-climb and you start a manual climbing turn, the nose wants to drop way to much. Once you had the real one trimed for level climbing attitude, you could start a turn and the nose wouldn't hardly move down when starting the turn, but would have to apply extra back pressure on elevator to maintain climb attitude. What we usually did, was after setting up desired climb rate, engage auto-pilot, then use turn function to turn to new headings. You would lose a little airspeed doing it that way, because the auto-pilot tried to maintain the desired climb rate. Wasn't much point in making over a "standard rate" turn of 3 degrees per second, at any speed, and the ole bird was quite docile in handling.
In stand board rides, the only thing I ever dreaded was the demonstrated 2 engines out on one side thing! If I remember correctly, 1.5 VSO, plus 15 for the wife and kids, but if you used trim as you should and didn't have much of cross wind, it was a piece of cake. Never did any 2 engine go around at less than 10,000 feet, because of the danger of losing control close to the ground and the stand board check pilot not having enough room to recover before crashing. The trick is when they say "go around" at the 10,000 foot level, you applied smooth full power on both good engines and as much rudder as you could apply to keep wings level and gradually work your way into a climb attitude. Step one, apply full power and wep, raise landing gear, establish a positive rate of climb and start milking flaps up. With full flaps down as in landing config, you were doing good to get a 150 foot per min climb rate, but it depended on your gross weight as what you could establish, and temperature and of course, you were working at 10,000 feet as opposed to working at a lower altitude. They would usually tell you about 200 feet above 10,000 feet that a truck had been disable on runway and you had to go around. The "Puckering" factor when to maximum and if you didn't settle below 10,000 feet doing your go around, you passed.
Sorry guys, didn't mean to ramble! LOL

what a treat.... :aok