Author Topic: bomber formations  (Read 7391 times)

Offline muzik

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bomber formations
« on: June 06, 2013, 10:23:02 PM »
The current string of threads about bombers, 163s and strats got me thinking about an old suggestion.

Large bomber formations

Implementation...

A bomber takes off and is followed in succession just as currently modeled, only with 23 drones to compose a formation. The bomber pilot must circle the base for the (historically accurate) form-up  within a specified radius. Failure to do so results in lost drones. Drones take off at realistic intervals.

Once drones have formed up, pilot may proceed to target. Which brings me to a secondary and also previously requested suggestion.

AI gunners for the formation.

Implementation...

AI gunners within a formation have varied skill levels with the better gunners placed in the most critical guns. AI gunners can fire in multiple directions against multiple attackers. Players can choose to take any position or none at all.

Perhaps AI skill levels can improve with longevity. For example, Each bomber in the formation is numbered; if bombers 12 and 19 continue to survive missions and better yet acquire kills on those missions, the AI skill level on those aircraft increases to a realistic level, not to the uncommon levels that can be seen in AH.


Validation for large formations...
  • Complaints that the recent wind changes make bombing too difficult.
  • Complaints it's hard to find fights.
  • More bang for the buck.
  • Reduction in unrealistic maneuvering.
  • Complaints that 163s deter bomber pilots from participation
  • New player benefits

The complaints I've seen about bombing accuracy after the wind change seemed to be a knee jerk reaction related to scores. Regardless, the ridiculously accurate results bombers have been getting for years should never be brought back. Combined with the more realistic randomness of bomb hits, large formations will produce more realistic bombing experience and results. The novelty of a change like this would probably placate any lingering wind worries.

A single fighter that attacks a single bomber formation is potentially provided with more entertainment with no increase in player population. The bomber pilot survives to rtb more often, the fighter pilots get more kills and spends less time looking for fights, etc.

This is especially important on late nights when Euro players may be getting less game for the same dollars spent by US players. Additional arguments can be made along this line.

With 24 bombers, the ability for a formation to endure the less realistic, hard maneuvers that can be seen in game should be reduced along with the gamey factor. Formations would have to make longer, wider turns if they choose to make second passes on the same base.

The odds of success for the bomber pilot increase as the risk to all fast moving attackers increases with more risk of collision or random hits by AI gunners.

New players will have better success in shorter periods of time and enjoy a feature that is not found in any other sim that I am aware of. Additional advantages described below.


Validation for AI gunners...
  • New players and learning curve.
  • Fighters have an unfair advantage against bombers even if they have 2 gunners.
  • Bombers shouldn't be such easy prey and unprotected from multiple fighters from multiple directions.
  • Bomber mission inadequacies.

New players have enough of a learning curve without learning to gun from a bomber. A certain amount of success is required early on or only the most devoted or motivated will stay. An inexperienced player may not even have the skill to land for months let alone get kills. Doesn't have to be easy mode, but there should be a little more chance.

Always been this way, fighters are at an advantage until the gunner positions are mastered and that is not too common.

Again, it's unrealistic and an unfair advantage when two or more fighters hit bombers from multiple directions.

Even when players gather enough to build large missions, they rarely have the cohesiveness to stay in a tight formation where they might provide mutual fire support.


BRING IT ON FLAMERS.   :D
Fear? You bet your life...but that all leaves you as you reach combat. Then there's a sense of great excitement, a thrill you can't duplicate anywhere...it's actually fun. Yes, I think it is the most exciting fun in the world. — Lt. Col. Robert B. "Westy" Westbrook, USAAF 6/<--lol@mod

Offline Arlo

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Re: bomber formations
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2013, 10:25:08 PM »
Huh. You don't ask for much do ya?  :D

Offline muzik

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Re: bomber formations
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2013, 10:33:57 PM »
Huh. You don't ask for much do ya?  :D

Understatement the year.
Fear? You bet your life...but that all leaves you as you reach combat. Then there's a sense of great excitement, a thrill you can't duplicate anywhere...it's actually fun. Yes, I think it is the most exciting fun in the world. — Lt. Col. Robert B. "Westy" Westbrook, USAAF 6/<--lol@mod

Offline gyrene81

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Re: bomber formations
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2013, 11:25:32 PM »
you do realize if formations are increased in number the amount of ords needed to drop any object is going to increase as well...just like asking for the ability to carry more troops.

nice concept...might happen when the nuke is introduced.
jarhed  
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. - Terry Pratchett

Offline Arlo

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Re: bomber formations
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2013, 11:31:01 PM »
Fat Man



"Fat Man" was the codename for the atomic bomb that was detonated over Nagasaki, Japan, by the United States on August 9, 1945. It was the second of two nuclear weapons to be used in warfare to date (the other being "Little Boy"), and its detonation caused the third man-made nuclear explosion. The name also refers more generically to the early nuclear weapon designs of U.S. weapons based on the "Fat Man" model. It was an implosion-type weapon with a plutonium core, similar to "The Gadget", the experimental device detonated less than a month earlier on July 16 at Alamogordo Air Field, New Mexico.[1] "Fat Man" was possibly named after Winston Churchill,[2] though Robert Serber said in his memoirs that as the "Fat Man" bomb was round and fat, he named it after Sydney Greenstreet's character of "Kasper Gutman" in The Maltese Falcon.

The original target for the bomb was the city of Kokura, but obscuring clouds necessitated changing course to the alternative target, Nagasaki. "Fat Man" was dropped from the B-29 bomber Bockscar, piloted by Major Charles Sweeney of the 393rd Bombardment Squadron, Heavy, and following a 43-second duration free fall, exploded at 11:02 AM (JST), at an altitude of about 1,650 feet (500 m), with a yield of about 21 kilotons of TNT or 88 terajoules.[3] The Mitsubishi-Urakami Ordnance Works, the factory that manufactured the type 91 torpedoes released in the attack on Pearl Harbor, was destroyed in the blast.[4] Because of poor visibility due to cloud cover, the bomb missed its intended detonation point, and damage was somewhat less extensive than that in Hiroshima. An estimated 40,000 people were killed outright by the bombing at Nagasaki, and a further 25,000 were injured.[5] Thousands more died later from related blast and burn injuries, and hundreds more from radiation illnesses from exposure to the bomb's initial radiation. The bombing raid on Nagasaki had the third highest fatality rate in World War II[6] after the nuclear strike on Hiroshima[7][8][9][10] and the March 9/10 1945 Operation Meetinghouse firebombing raid on Tokyo.[11]

^ Hakim, Joy (1995). A History of Us: War, Peace and all that Jazz. New York: Oxford University Press. ISBN 0-19-509514-6.
^ "1945: Atom bomb hits Nagasaki". BBC News. August 9, 1945. Retrieved May 2, 2010.
^ What was the yield of the Hiroshima bomb?
^ Cook, Haruko & Theadore (1992). Japan at War: An Oral History. New York: The New Press. ISBN 0-7322-5605-4.
^ The Avalon Project : The Atomic Bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki
^ The Atomic Bombing of Nagasaki, August 9, 1945
^ Health Risks from Exposure to Low Levels of Ionizing Radiation: BEIR VII Phase 2
^ Frequently Asked Questions - Radiation Effects Research Foundation
^ Radiobiology for the radiologist. Lippincott Williams & Wilkins, 6th edition. Chapter 10, Sections 3,4,5.
^ The Atomic Bombing of Hiroshima, August 6, 1945
^ Richard B. Frank, Downfall, p. 17–18.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat_Man


Offline MrKrabs

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Re: bomber formations
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2013, 11:32:28 PM »
and BOING!!! wish granted


If you want to play this kind of scenario, go build and play a staged mission...



You can flop around with as many bombers in a single formation as you like with as many fighters/escorts as you like... Best part is you can play it by yourself or with some friends...
The boiling pot is put away and the crab has gone back to sea...

Offline Fish42

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Re: bomber formations
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2013, 11:33:50 PM »
you do realize if formations are increased in number the amount of ords needed to drop any object is going to increase as well...just like asking for the ability to carry more troops.

Yes and no. Yes more bombs could be carried, but the formation would only be for carpet bombing, true you could get 3-4 bombers to hit the hanger, but the rest would just carpet the area around it. Towns and Factories would be the only ones were it would work effectively.

Offline Arlo

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Re: bomber formations
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2013, 11:36:01 PM »
Little Boy



"Little Boy" was the codename for the atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima on August 6, 1945 by the Boeing B-29 Superfortress Enola Gay, piloted by Colonel Paul Tibbets of the 393rd Bombardment Squadron, Heavy, of the United States Army Air Forces. It was the first atomic bomb to be used as a weapon. The second, the "Fat Man", was dropped three days later on Nagasaki.[3]

The weapon was developed by the Manhattan Project during World War II. It derived its explosive power from the nuclear fission of uranium 235. The Hiroshima bombing was the second artificial nuclear explosion in history, after the Trinity test, and the first uranium-based detonation. Approximately 600 to 860 milligrams of matter in the bomb was converted into the active energy of heat and radiation (see mass–energy equivalence for detail). It exploded with an energy of 16 kilotons of TNT (67 TJ).[4] It has been estimated by neutral sources that 90,000–166,000 people had died as a result of its use by the end of December 1945.[5][6] Its design was not tested in advance, unlike the more complex plutonium bomb (Fat Man). The available supply of enriched uranium was very small at that time, and it was thought that the simple design of a uranium "gun" type bomb was so sure to work that there was no need to test it at full scale.



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d1/Little_Boy_Internal_Components.png

Offline Fish42

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Re: bomber formations
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2013, 11:39:27 PM »
Anyone else get the impression that Arlo has just found out about Wiki?

Offline gyrene81

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Re: bomber formations
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2013, 11:40:47 PM »
Yes and no. Yes more bombs could be carried, but the formation would only be for carpet bombing, true you could get 3-4 bombers to hit the hanger, but the rest would just carpet the area around it. Towns and Factories would be the only ones were it would work effectively.
that would require changing the bomb current bomb dispersion system...they all hit what the lead bomber is aiming at. no need for more than 2 drones as it is. if someone wants massive bomber formations, start teaching bomber wannabes how to fly in formation, navigate and fight as a group.
jarhed  
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. - Terry Pratchett

Offline Fish42

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Re: bomber formations
« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2013, 12:01:53 AM »
that would require changing the bomb current bomb dispersion system...they all hit what the lead bomber is aiming at. no need for more than 2 drones as it is.


There is already dispersion in the bomb drops, Not miles worth but it is still there. Adding to that is the fact your drones bombs are dropped from where they are in relation to your plane. A large formation do not all stack up on the one point. they will be spread out in their box at different alts, this forces the spread onto the drop.


Offline Arlo

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Re: bomber formations
« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2013, 12:51:45 AM »
Anyone else get the impression that Arlo has just found out about Wiki?

Oh yeah man. Just bought my first PC today, as well. Before this I was playing AH telepathically.

 :D

Offline muzik

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Re: bomber formations
« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2013, 01:10:16 AM »
but the formation would only be for carpet bombing, true you could get 3-4 bombers to hit the hanger, but the rest would just carpet the area around it. Towns and Factories would be the only ones were it would work effectively.

Bingo.  I never heard anything about how bomb dispersion works in game. I only know that at low level all bombs originate from their respective bombers and spread accordingly. Why they seem to hit a single point from altitude is beyond me because I rarely fly bombers.

you do realize if formations are increased in number the amount of ords needed to drop any object is going to increase as well...


I did anticipate that but like Fish said, there will be dispersal. How much change there should be to the objects is debatable.


and BOING!!! wish granted


If you want to play this kind of scenario, go build and play a staged mission...



You can flop around with as many bombers in a single formation as you like with as many fighters/escorts as you like... Best part is you can play it by yourself or with some friends...

You couldn't have missed the point any further.  I don't fly bombers, only rarely do i hunt them because it's just not as fun as a dogfight and I'm not looking for any scenario at all. My post was for the overall good of the game. Thanks for your comment. When you come up with an intelligent objection I'll be sure to take it into consideration.
Fear? You bet your life...but that all leaves you as you reach combat. Then there's a sense of great excitement, a thrill you can't duplicate anywhere...it's actually fun. Yes, I think it is the most exciting fun in the world. — Lt. Col. Robert B. "Westy" Westbrook, USAAF 6/<--lol@mod

Offline gyrene81

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Re: bomber formations
« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2013, 07:14:21 AM »
There is already dispersion in the bomb drops, Not miles worth but it is still there. Adding to that is the fact your drones bombs are dropped from where they are in relation to your plane. A large formation do not all stack up on the one point. they will be spread out in their box at different alts, this forces the spread onto the drop.

(Image removed from quote.)
you might want to go look at the bomb dispersion again. use single bomb salvo and not from 5000 feet, go to 15000 and higher where level bombers should be dropping from (if they want a chance to land).



You couldn't have missed the point any further.  I don't fly bombers, only rarely do i hunt them because it's just not as fun as a dogfight and I'm not looking for any scenario at all. My post was for the overall good of the game. Thanks for your comment. When you come up with an intelligent objection I'll be sure to take it into consideration.
unfortunately your idea misses the target. there are ramifications and changes that would be needed, that you haven't considered.
jarhed  
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. - Terry Pratchett

Offline muzik

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Re: bomber formations
« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2013, 11:32:06 AM »
unfortunately your idea misses the target. there are ramifications and changes that would be needed, that you haven't considered.

Another validation that I almost listed but chose not to because I didn't want to elaborate on was a new direction for the game. I considered much more than I stated in the op.

I considered the fact that strats, bases or towns might be completely decimated by fewer attackers. It would force changes as to how we capture towns and effectively how the war is fought.

Fear? You bet your life...but that all leaves you as you reach combat. Then there's a sense of great excitement, a thrill you can't duplicate anywhere...it's actually fun. Yes, I think it is the most exciting fun in the world. — Lt. Col. Robert B. "Westy" Westbrook, USAAF 6/<--lol@mod