Author Topic: Pilot Wounds BS  (Read 3220 times)

Offline texasfighter

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Pilot Wounds BS
« on: June 17, 2013, 12:12:00 PM »
The number of pilot wounds received is just BS. I fly a P47 which was known to be a tough aircraft that could take a lot of damage. The pilot was well protected (read Robert Johnson's book). But if I get hit (but not killed on the first hit), way over 50% of the time I get a pilot wound. That's just BS. So I guess HTC believes that over 50% of the guys in the 56th fighter group went down because of pilot wounds. Bull. Absolute total Bull.

Of all the times I have been hit, I think I have had one rudder shot away and a couple ailerons shot away. That's all. Lots of oil leaks. But pilot wounds .... 40-50 maybe. Way, way out of proportion. I guess the whole freaking German Luftwaffe fighter force either blew up on first hit or died/ were put out of action because of pilot wounds.

Died twice today from the same bomber pilot from pilot wounds. Couldn't land or even ditch my plane. So I know I have to just bail out if I have a pilot wound if more than about 14k away from base. So I guess in WWII no-one ever got home if they were pilot wounded. What complete BS!

So I believe strongly that a) there are too many pilot wounds proportionately to plane damage; b) pilot wounds result in death way too fast.

I will look up and start adding to this string stories of real pilots that were wounded but made it back to base. I'll start here with mention of a pilot in the Spanish Civil War (before Pearl Harbor) that was wounded in a fighter duel and landed. His name was Derek Dickinson and he defeated Bruno Mussolini in a pre-arranged fighter duel. He had 326 bullet holes in this plane, was shot in his left arm but still landed his plane. Read about it in "The Ragged, Rugged Warriors" by Martin Caidin. (Edit: ok we'll through this story out. I'll add other ones.)

Tex78
« Last Edit: June 17, 2013, 12:42:23 PM by texasfighter »

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Offline zack1234

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Re: Pilot Wounds BS
« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2013, 12:15:00 PM »
Your not fast enough and are too close to the bombers :old:
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Offline Lusche

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Re: Pilot Wounds BS
« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2013, 12:16:04 PM »
I will look up and start adding to this string stories of real pilots that were wounded but made it back to base.


Could you also add the string of stories of real pilots who never where wounded but did NOT made it back to base?



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Offline Bino

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Re: Pilot Wounds BS
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2013, 12:31:00 PM »
...
I will look up and start adding to this string stories of real pilots that were wounded but made it back to base. I'll start here with mention of a pilot in China before Pearl Harbor that was wounded in a fighter duel and landed. His name was Derek Dickinson and he defeated Bruno Mussolini in a pre-arranged fighter duel. He had 326 bullet holes in this plane, was shot in his left arm but still landed his plane. Read about it in "The Ragged, Rugged Warriors" by Martin Caidin.
Tex78

Two minutes web search reveals that the seldom-accurate Mr. Caidin was repeating what was likely a bogus story told by a mercenary who flew for the Republicans in the Spanish Civil War.

"...
Page 110 of "Airmen Without Portfolio," by John Carver Edwards states, "Once back home, Dickinson recounted to a Herald Tribune reporter his account of an air duel with Bruno Mussolini, the Duce's youngest son. The contest reportedly took place on Septermber 28, 1937. Dickinson claimed that both he and Mussolini flew monoplanes (I-16 and a Fiat G 50) and that each pilot had two observation planes in tow as witnesses. The Spanish subsecretary of Air, Augustin Sanz Sainz, honored Dickinson by serving as one of his observers. The early phases of the dogfight resulted in a draw, claimed the American, until he circled behind the Italian and opened fire; whereupon Mussolini signaled his surrender. Dickinson told reporters that he ended the battle and returned to base. Perhaps the most bizarre tale to emerge from the Spanish Civil War, Dickinson sold the account to For Men magazine and later condensed for Reader's Digest.

Mr Edwards continued, "In addition to contemporary statements by Tinker, Baumler, and other volunteer pilots concerning Dickinson's penchant for exaggeration, aviation historians have since branded his chronicle as rubbish. First, Bruno Mussolini arrived in Spain in late September 1937 as a bomber pilot. He subsequently participated in twenty-seven sorties in a Savoia-Marchetti SM 79 and returned to Italy in March 1938, reportedly because the Republican Air Ministry had put a bounty on his head. Second, his alleged fighter, the Fiat G 50, was the sole Italian monoplane to appear in Spain, and did not debut until January 1939. At the time of the so-called duel, there were only two prototypes in existence. Third, Dickinson's primary witness, Sanz Sainz, who commanded the airfield at Alcala de Henares, had perished in a bombing raid six months prior to the Dickinson-Mussolini aerial engagement (March 23, 1937)."


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Offline wrench

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Re: Pilot Wounds BS
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2013, 12:31:21 PM »
I get a lot of pilot wounds. Way too many, even when moving very fast in relation to bombers. Even through the belly of the aircraft (I call these buttshot).

From viewing the films where wounded, it looks like there's a zone on the fuselage where if there's a hit from any direction you automatically get a pilot wound, with possibly some randomizing thrown in there.

I agree too many pilot wounds. I have films to show how some pilot wounds are just retarded.  :headscratch:

I really like this game and don't plan on leaving but pilot wounds are sometimes too much and I log off because of frustration.  :huh
Leave that thing alone!
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Offline BluBerry

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Re: Pilot Wounds BS
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2013, 12:32:50 PM »

Could you also add the string of stories of real pilots who never where wounded but did NOT made it back to base?



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To many typos distracting me from the hidden point.

Offline titanic3

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Re: Pilot Wounds BS
« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2013, 12:34:50 PM »
Make pilot wounds have three types of severity.

Hits from LMG rounds (.30 Cal and 7.7mm) = no black outs, sluggish controls.
Hits from HMG (.50 cal and 13mm) = same as current
Hits from cannons = faster black outs

  the game is concentrated on combat, not on shaking the screen.

semp

Offline Arlo

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Re: Pilot Wounds BS
« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2013, 01:28:23 PM »
Make pilot wounds have three types of severity.

Hits from LMG rounds (.30 Cal and 7.7mm) = no black outs, sluggish controls.
Hits from HMG (.50 cal and 13mm) = same as current
Hits from cannons = faster black outs
A direct hit from a cannon anywhere on the pilot's body wouldn't result in a
'pilot wound'. It would result in a 'pilot dead'.

Offline texasfighter

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Re: Pilot Wounds BS
« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2013, 01:35:53 PM »
Robert Johnson flew P47s in the 56th Fighter Group. Below taken from Wikipedia but the basic story has been told in several other sources including the history channel:

One of the 56th's worst setbacks occurred on June 26, 1943, when 48 P-47Cs left a forward operating base at RAF Manston late in the afternoon to provide escort for B-17 Flying Fortress bombers returning from a mission against Villacoublay airfield in the Paris suburbs. As the P-47s approached the rendezvous point near Forges-les-Eaux, they were jumped from above and behind by 16 Focke-Wulf Fw 190s of II Gruppe, JG 26. The first pass scattered the Thunderbolts, and Johnson's aircraft, flying at the rear of the 61st Squadron's formation, was seriously damaged by a 20 mm shell that exploded in his cockpit and ruptured his hydraulic system. Burned and partially blinded by hydraulic fluid, Johnson tried to bail out, but could not open his shattered canopy.

After pulling out of an uncontrolled spin and with the fire amazingly going out on its own, Johnson headed for the English Channel, but was intercepted by a single Fw 190. Unable to fight back, he maneuvered while under a series of attacks, and although sustaining further heavy damage from both 7.92mm and 20mm rounds, managed to survive until the German ran out of ammunition, who, after saluting him by rocking his wings, turned back. His opponent has never been identified, but Johnson could have been one of three victories claimed that day by the commander of III/JG 2, Oberst Egon Mayer. After landing, Johnson tried to count the bullet holes in his airplane, but when he passed 200, including 21, 20 mm cannon shell impacts, without even moving around the aircraft, he gave up.

While Johnson made it back to crash land at Manston, four other pilots of the 56th FG were killed in action. A fifth, able to extend only one of his plane's landing gear struts, had to bail out over the English Channel and was rescued north of Yarmouth. Five other Thunderbolts suffered battle damage. Johnson suffered shrapnel wounds and minor burns to his face, hands, and legs, and was awarded the Purple Heart. He resumed flying missions on July 1.

To my point: Seven P47s suffered battle damage and returned. Four were killed in action. Granted, I don't have evidence how they died but it seems to be a real stretch to think that they were all pilot wounded and died when they bled out (which is what AH assumes). Most likely their planes blew up or were so severely damaged that they could not bail out. Again my point is that AH has a) too many pilot wounds assigned b) that are modeled with the pilot blacking out inceasingly over the time of the remaining flight. There should be other creative ways to model pilot wounds that don't involve the accelerating black outs. We have already had one good suggestion with the sloppy controls. I would add another possibility: a change to the visual to simulate pain but not a black out. The visual bounces a few times with appropriate sound added. Kind of like a migraine simulation.

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Offline Fulcrum

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Re: Pilot Wounds BS
« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2013, 01:37:48 PM »
Make pilot wounds have three types of severity.
....
Hits from cannons =

permanent blackouts due to the large diameter hole in the pilot's body?   :D
Going by "Hoplite" now. :)

Offline Wiley

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Re: Pilot Wounds BS
« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2013, 01:38:12 PM »
I've always felt the pilot wounds were something a bit gamey, pretty much a second chance if your cockpit gets hit with anything bigger than a .30.  I'd be curious to know what the stats were on pilot survival if the armor of the cockpit was breached.  I'm guessing it wasn't tremendously high.

Wiley.
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Offline morfiend

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Re: Pilot Wounds BS
« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2013, 01:41:26 PM »
 Tex,


  I understand your complaint but I would like to point out a couple of things.

 1, Were you on the buffs 6? That would place the guns aiming at the front/cockpit area of the aircraft.

 2, Were you attacking from a high frontal position? The top turret would target same area as the tail guns.

 3, I can almost bet you if you were shooting at the 47 from the buffs you'd think they were too tough.....  sometimes you're the windshield sometimes you're the bug.



   If you think PW are bad in the 47,try a 110,38 or a mossie and you'll soon think the 47 isn't that bad!


  I do wish we had a more detailed damage model but it is what it is,dont let a bad sortie or 2 ruin all the fun you can have.




   :salute

Offline SPKmes

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Re: Pilot Wounds BS
« Reply #12 on: June 17, 2013, 01:44:23 PM »
It takes a long time before the pilot dies from bleed out in aces... so you should have no reason not to be able to land unless you have flown 2 sectors from a friendly base... or get so fixated on revenge for making you bleed that you just keep at it till the pilots demise...

Offline Wiley

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Re: Pilot Wounds BS
« Reply #13 on: June 17, 2013, 01:49:09 PM »
Tex,


  I understand your complaint but I would like to point out a couple of things.

 1, Were you on the buffs 6? That would place the guns aiming at the front/cockpit area of the aircraft.

 2, Were you attacking from a high frontal position? The top turret would target same area as the tail guns.

 3, I can almost bet you if you were shooting at the 47 from the buffs you'd think they were too tough.....  sometimes you're the windshield sometimes you're the bug.



   If you think PW are bad in the 47,try a 110,38 or a mossie and you'll soon think the 47 isn't that bad!


  I do wish we had a more detailed damage model but it is what it is,dont let a bad sortie or 2 ruin all the fun you can have.




   :salute

Just a small squeak of anecdote, but I fly the D11 a fair bit.  I get PWed I would say at least 75% of the times I get hit.  I always attribute it to people aiming more for the cockpit because it's a soft target.

Wiley.
If you think you are having a 1v1 in the Main Arena, your SA has failed you.

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Offline morfiend

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Re: Pilot Wounds BS
« Reply #14 on: June 17, 2013, 01:58:00 PM »
Just a small squeak of anecdote, but I fly the D11 a fair bit.  I get PWed I would say at least 75% of the times I get hit.  I always attribute it to people aiming more for the cockpit because it's a soft target.

Wiley.


  Willey,

  I wasn't disputing the PW's in the 47,I was merely pointing out that it happens more often in twins for whatever reason. Might be as you say a soft target,a larger target,whatever.  I think my real point was not to let a couple of bad sorties ruin anyones fun.


   :salute