F22 vs Rafale dogfight video

[kilo2]

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ba3_1371593163

Pretty cool vid. Must be a work out.

[thrila]

Reminds me of a phone call i once had

[Ack-Ack]

That's the fight in which the F-22s were heavily handicapped by being forced to carry external fuel tanks while fighting while the Rafale wasn't. 

ack-ack

[Wmaker]

That's the fight in which the F-22s were heavily handicapped by being forced to carry external fuel tanks while fighting while the Rafale wasn't.  

I don't see external tanks on that video. The resolution of the video isn't very good but the dark raptor presents a good contrast against the desert and I don't see anything in the wings going beyond the leading edge of the wing.

[Gixer]

Raptor lost last year to German AF Typhoons, raising questions about the cost vs effectiveness. Doesn't say much for the F35 given it's cost to date, think it will be obsolete for most of it's missions before operational status.

"Raptor Salad for Lunch"   

http://theaviationist.com/2012/07/13/fia12-typhoon-raptor/

Just thinking if a Typhoon can gain the edge, a SU-30 would be even more dominating up close. And don't assume all future engagements will be BVR, that mistake was made in Vietnam.


<S>...-Gixer

[Gman]

While it may be possible that the Rafale and Typhoon are the F22's equal in visual range fights, the fact of the matter is that in modern air combat it doesn't mean as much anymore.  One pilot I know who has 2500 hours in the Canadian  CF18 and has graduated Empire test pilot school, flew the Typhoon over 300 hours in development, and has flown the Gripen and Rafale as well told me some interesting stuff about his opinions of the F22 and F35.  In his experience in every Red flag or major exercise he flew in, whenever he was killed it was almost always while he was busy being wrapped up in a close range fight, where his situational awareness shrunk down to just him and the 1 or 2 aircraft he was fighting against.  This is normal, think about it in AH2, most of the time you call it "being picked" right.

What makes the F22 and F35 so much more dangerous than 4.5 gen fighters, is how easy they make it for their drivers to "pick" other fighters due to their sensors and more importantly HOW that data is presented to the pilot.  It gives them a far superior picture of what is happening in the battle space than what any other fighter does, and it simplifies greatly how easy and quickly they can kill these other planes.  So, while maybe some of them like the Grippen/Typhoon/Su27/etc can match or possibly even beat the F22/F35 in knife fights, the truth of the matter is they'll never be able to do what those Stealth aircraft can do in a realistic fight, where there are no handicaps or setup fights with drop tanks, radar reflection augmenters and what not being used, or where the F22/F35 can utilize their huge advantage in sensors, fusion, stealth, and data presentation to the pilot.

So, while some pilots may like to paint little F22's on their planes and talk about having Raptor Salad, the facts are that in a real war vs the F22, they would be eating missiles without even knowing where they were coming from, and wouldn't likely even detect that they were under attack until the Aim120 flipped on its own active radar well into the no escape zone where there is virtually no chance to survive.

[Gixer]

So, while some pilots may like to paint little F22's on their planes and talk about having Raptor Salad, the facts are that in a real war vs the F22, they would be eating missiles without even knowing where they were coming from, and wouldn't likely even detect that they were under attack until the Aim120 flipped on its own active radar well into the no escape zone where there is virtually no chance to survive.

Hopefully that text book sales pitch scenario doesn't happen soon as they are still upgrading the life support systems one plane at a time. And until then planes not upgraded can't fly beyond 30 mins from a suitable AFB.

A more possible scenario at current rate of deficit increase,debt and interest payments is the US won't be able to afford to field the Raptor in any great numbers let alone the F35 as well to make a difference on any future battlefield.

Already seeing cuts in pilot training etc, wouldn't be surprised to see the F35 dumped completely. You can have the latest and greatest military tech and weapons available but if you don't have the economy to support it, all becomes worthless.

Unless your chinese, then you get the tech cheap off the internet to start with. 


<S>...-Gixer

[bozon]

Gman, and what makes you think that Eurofighter, Rafael and even previous generation american fighters with some upgrades are so inferior to F22 in sensors and data presentation to the pilot? Also a passive stealth technology is only one way to prevent acquisition from an enemy fighter. The big unknown of future air combat are the effectiveness of electronic warfare and various counter measures. I will not be surprised if many future engagements end up in a classic dogfight, or at least within visual rage and using fast, short range missiles.

[Nypsy]

While it may be possible that the Rafale and Typhoon are the F22's equal in visual range fights, the fact of the matter is that in modern air combat it doesn't mean as much anymore.  One pilot I know who has 2500 hours in the Canadian  CF18 and has graduated Empire test pilot school, flew the Typhoon over 300 hours in development, and has flown the Gripen and Rafale as well told me some interesting stuff about his opinions of the F22 and F35.  In his experience in every Red flag or major exercise he flew in, whenever he was killed it was almost always while he was busy being wrapped up in a close range fight, where his situational awareness shrunk down to just him and the 1 or 2 aircraft he was fighting against.  This is normal, think about it in AH2, most of the time you call it "being picked" right.

What makes the F22 and F35 so much more dangerous than 4.5 gen fighters, is how easy they make it for their drivers to "pick" other fighters due to their sensors and more importantly HOW that data is presented to the pilot.  It gives them a far superior picture of what is happening in the battle space than what any other fighter does, and it simplifies greatly how easy and quickly they can kill these other planes.  So, while maybe some of them like the Grippen/Typhoon/Su27/etc can match or possibly even beat the F22/F35 in knife fights, the truth of the matter is they'll never be able to do what those Stealth aircraft can do in a realistic fight, where there are no handicaps or setup fights with drop tanks, radar reflection augmenters and what not being used, or where the F22/F35 can utilize their huge advantage in sensors, fusion, stealth, and data presentation to the pilot.

So, while some pilots may like to paint little F22's on their planes and talk about having Raptor Salad, the facts are that in a real war vs the F22, they would be eating missiles without even knowing where they were coming from, and wouldn't likely even detect that they were under attack until the Aim120 flipped on its own active radar well into the no escape zone where there is virtually no chance to survive.

Exactly!

[Gman]

What makes me think that Bozon is 3 fighter pilots, one of whom has shot down a Mig 29, and two others both over 2000 hours, one of those having flown nearly every fighter in Nato's inventory except the F22, including the Grippen, Typhoon as the main development pilot on their radar and sensor displays, the F18, F16, and F5, TOLD me so.  Simple as that.  

If you get into these arguments with amateurs like me and you on the internet, you can go round and round forever based on opinions that are likewise read on the internet.  If I'm told something by people who actually do it for a living, and have been instructors at the best schools on the planet for doing it, I take their word over anyone else.  Do you know anybody who has flown the Typhoon and been involved in it since the beginning, and heard their opinion on how it stacks up versus American stealth fighters?  I'll gladly PM you the pilot's names if you wish, I graduated from school with one, having grown up with him since I was 4, and met the other 2 through him, and he's currently a Major in the RCAF and has over 2500 hours in the Hornet, 300+ of that combat time, and will be the RCAF test pilot for the F35 as well, and is currently in the USA flying it right now.

You are correct that there is many ways to avoid detection, just flying certain routes and profiles was a big part of the F117's stealth capability so they say.  "They" also say Israel has a magic box that makes their non stealth aircraft invisible too.  Who knows what the future will bring, but as of right now, I'll go with what information I was told by pilots that do it for a living every day.

[MrRiplEy[H]]

What makes me think that Bozon is 3 fighter pilots, one of whom has shot down a Mig 29, and two others both over 2000 hours, one of those having flown nearly every fighter in Nato's inventory except the F22, including the Grippen, Typhoon as the main development pilot on their radar and sensor displays, the F18, F16, and F5, TOLD me so.  Simple as that.  

If you get into these arguments with amateurs like me and you on the internet, you can go round and round forever based on opinions that are likewise read on the internet.  If I'm told something by people who actually do it for a living, and have been instructors at the best schools on the planet for doing it, I take their word over anyone else.  Do you know anybody who has flown the Typhoon and been involved in it since the beginning, and heard their opinion on how it stacks up versus American stealth fighters?  I'll gladly PM you the pilot's names if you wish, I graduated from school with one, having grown up with him since I was 4, and met the other 2 through him, and he's currently a Major in the RCAF and has over 2500 hours in the Hornet, 300+ of that combat time, and will be the RCAF test pilot for the F35 as well, and is currently in the USA flying it right now.

You are correct that there is many ways to avoid detection, just flying certain routes and profiles was a big part of the F117's stealth capability so they say.  "They" also say Israel has a magic box that makes their non stealth aircraft invisible too.  Who knows what the future will bring, but as of right now, I'll go with what information I was told by pilots that do it for a living every day.

On the other hand would someone serving at military go about publishing information how superior an another countrys systems are? I can't see anyone who goes about telling civillians 'our stuff sucks' would last very long in the job.

[curry1]

However, not all the modern and future scenarios envisage BVR (Beyond Visual Range) engagements and the risk of coming to close range 1 vs 1 (or 2 vs 2, 3 vs 3 etc) is still high, especially considered that the F-22 currently uses AIM-120 AMRAAM missiles, whose maximum range is around 100 km (below the Meteor missile used by the Typhoon).

I can't believe that this article is comparing the BVR capabilities of the F-22 and the Typhoon and how the Typhoon is superior with its longer range Meteor missile.  When obviously it doesn't matter that the Typhoon has a longer range missile when no Typhoon would be able to see an F-22 from over 100km.  Not mentioning the fact that the AIM-120D has a range of 180km MUCH GREATER than the meteor.

Gman, and what makes you think that Eurofighter, Rafael and even previous generation american fighters with some upgrades are so inferior to F22 in sensors and data presentation to the pilot? Also a passive stealth technology is only one way to prevent acquisition from an enemy fighter. The big unknown of future air combat are the effectiveness of electronic warfare and various counter measures. I will not be surprised if many future engagements end up in a classic dogfight, or at least within visual rage and using fast, short range missiles.

None of which are as effective as stealth.  If you use electronic jamming all you are doing is allowing the F-22 to either fire an AIM-120 at you with its radar off and when it gets close enough the AMRAAM switches on and can burn through the jamming rendering the Typhoon dead.  Or the F-22 uses its passive radar mode and soaks in the incoming electronic signals can maneuver around the front end of the Typhoon and it's radar and press from the side and when it gets close enough burn through the jamming with its own much more powerful radar or again fire a missile.

[Rich46yo]

Just thinking if a Typhoon can gain the edge, a SU-30 would be even more dominating up close. And don't assume all future engagements will be BVR, that mistake was made in Vietnam.

Thats like saying a WW2 era P51s could survive against a Desert Storm era F-15 or 16. We are several generations of missilry and avionics past 'nam. Since 'nam almost all ATA kills by American fighters have been with BVR missiles, which have a higher and higher rate of effectiveness.

Obviously if the enemy survives long enough to even see one of our airplanes then our designs have failed. Both the f22 and Typhoon were designed for specific missions. None of which envisioned they would ever meet in combat.

[Slate]

   Soon more of our Robots will take to the sky and make manned fighters obsolete.  

  


   You have a robot tracking your every move and it's in your pocket. They are watching!  

  

[Nypsy]

  Soon more of our Robots will take to the sky and make manned fighters obsolete.  

  


   You have a robot tracking your every move and it's in your pocket. They are watching!  

  

"I Robot" great book destroyed as a movie by Will Smith. (Sorry for the hijack...my dislike of Smith drove me to it)