Author Topic: F22 vs Rafale dogfight video  (Read 1461 times)

Offline Gman

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Re: F22 vs Rafale dogfight video
« Reply #30 on: June 20, 2013, 02:08:16 AM »
Aaaaand add another great Eagl post to the collection.  Hey Eagl, if you have time, can you answer a couple other questions?  I've always wondered what the split was on training and and importance between A2G and A2A with you F15E drivers.  From what I've read it's nearly as good as the F15C, and can fly at weights far far beyond the C model, as well as carry the same 8 missile or more loadout, as well as more fuel, giving you obviously more time in the battlespace before having to tank.  How much did you get to focus on fighting other aircraft as opposed to blowing stuff up on the ground with all those nifty air to ground systems.  And when you did get to fight, how much like the F15C were your maneuvers and tactics and such?


Offline Rich46yo

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Re: F22 vs Rafale dogfight video
« Reply #31 on: June 20, 2013, 04:21:45 AM »
Quote
"They" also say Israel has a magic box that makes their non stealth aircraft invisible too.

"They" ate the Americans who supplied Israel with the Suter airborn network attack system. This is a high tech system that allows us to infiltrate enemy radar networks and actually control what they see themselves. Thats how Israel invaded Libyan airspace with ease using  4'th gen aircraft. Theres always a battle of the waves going on.
"flying the aircraft of the Red Star"

Offline Gman

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Re: F22 vs Rafale dogfight video
« Reply #32 on: June 20, 2013, 04:51:34 AM »
NO talky talky Rich, that's supposed to be a secret, wink wink.

Offline Rich46yo

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Re: F22 vs Rafale dogfight video
« Reply #33 on: June 20, 2013, 07:48:42 AM »
NO talky talky Rich, that's supposed to be a secret, wink wink.

Actually I meant "Syrian" air space not Libyan.

"flying the aircraft of the Red Star"

Offline DubiousKB

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Re: F22 vs Rafale dogfight video
« Reply #34 on: June 20, 2013, 12:41:36 PM »
Awesome! So in other words the United States has a thrust vectoring overpriced spaceship that's just as good but no better than a plain ole jet fighter.  :rolleyes: I want a refund!  :furious

You want a refund? Look up the "Avero-Arrow"..... The Canucks have already buggered up one "next generation aircraft", and we may be in middle of the second with this raptor.   *facepalm*
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Offline eagl

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Re: F22 vs Rafale dogfight video
« Reply #35 on: June 20, 2013, 02:29:50 PM »
Aaaaand add another great Eagl post to the collection.  Hey Eagl, if you have time, can you answer a couple other questions?  I've always wondered what the split was on training and and importance between A2G and A2A with you F15E drivers.  From what I've read it's nearly as good as the F15C, and can fly at weights far far beyond the C model, as well as carry the same 8 missile or more loadout, as well as more fuel, giving you obviously more time in the battlespace before having to tank.  How much did you get to focus on fighting other aircraft as opposed to blowing stuff up on the ground with all those nifty air to ground systems.  And when you did get to fight, how much like the F15C were your maneuvers and tactics and such?

Back when I was flying the Eagle, we did about 10-15% pure air to air, 10-15% pure air to ground, and the remainder was as much as possible multi-role missions.  For example, if I flew 10 sorties in a month, maybe one or two would be BFM/ACM or air superiority kind of stuff, one or two might be dedicated to going to the bombing range to practice the basics, and the rest would be something like a low level to the training area, fly to a target opposed by some red air bandits which we had to kill, drop the bombs, and then fight our way back out against the same red air who we would have regenerate at a different spot to try to get us on egress.  So the training really overlapped a lot, and rarely would we dedicate a training flight to only A/A or A/G.  Sorties dedicated to training for special weapons would be added on to that, but that was the general training flow.

Regarding loadout, the F-15E can carry 4 missiles with almost every conventional a/a or a/g loadout with no aircraft configuration change.  To carry more than 4 missiles, we have to configure the conformal fuel tanks from bombs to missiles, which takes time and effort.  So we rarely did that.  But if required, we could reasonably quickly change configuration as the mission dictated.

As for effectiveness compared to the F-15C, we could do pretty much everything they could, just a bit slower/lower.  The CFTs add weight and a LOT of drag, so we just don't go as fast, don't usually cruise quite as high, and certainly don't accelerate or maneuver as well.  But the basic weapons systems are comparable with minor differences in capabilities.  The new AESA radar used on some Eagles is a different story, but fielding that across all types is mostly a budget issue.  There are a couple of things the F-15E can do that an F-15C can't, but they're not revolutionary game changers or anything.  Having a WSO able to share the workload is a good thing especially in high threat situations.  One time we went out 4v4 at night against some F-15Cs, and their data link system was not working.  We didn't even have datalink in the F-15E at the time, so while they were falling back to their secondary gameplan we were executing our primary plan.  With the Pilots maintaining tactical formation and maneuvering while the WSO was able to use the systems to keep SA high, we shredded the F-15Cs during two separate engagements.  Embarassing for them but not entirely unexpected since although they are the "experts" in that sort of thing, they were playing in our ballpark (night complex missions) so that really evened things out.

For the nitty gritty maneuvers during BFM, we had similar capabilities for a first move, and after that we were pretty much sitting ducks if we didn't force the engagement our way right away.  But all the BFM basics that apply to them also apply to us, we're just fatter and draggier so we can't expect the plane's performance to save us or fly us out of a bad situation.  But we both have a 9G break turn, a certain number of degrees AOA, and the same weapons release parameters, so the basic objective of putting your plane into the weapons envelope and employing a high Pk shot is exactly the same.  An F-15E just needs to shoot first and don't accept neutral, because that ends poorly in a "fair" fight against a modern fighter.  Helmet mounted sight expands the employment envelope but it doesn't make up for the fact that the F-15E is still the fat kid on the block.  That's great if you need a fullback or 20,000 lbs of bombs dropped somewhere, not so good in a BFM engagement.

For a basic air superiority role with a reasonably permissive ROE though, an F-15E can be tasked for anything an F-15C can be tasked for.  The C models really focus on that though, so it is better if they get those air to air taskings.  Still, if the JSF doesn't work out (or even if it does), I personally think it would be a fine idea to send our remaining F-15Cs to the guard and buy another 500 or so new-build F-15Es.  They wouldn't lose ANY performance since the new motors have about 8000lbs more thrust and you can leave the CFTs and pods off, and they'd have all the new gadgets onboard.  A "clean" new F-15E would be superior to an F-15C in almost every way and since they're built stronger they might last longer too. 
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Offline Lusche

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Re: F22 vs Rafale dogfight video
« Reply #36 on: June 20, 2013, 03:26:28 PM »
After reading this I feel the desire to dig out my old Air Superiority and Air Strike games again  :)
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Offline Gman

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Re: F22 vs Rafale dogfight video
« Reply #37 on: June 20, 2013, 06:12:47 PM »
Awesome, thanks Eagl, a few of those answers gave me a couple more questions too, once I have some more time I'll post them up probably.

Just quickly though, new F15E's built nowadays, with the new engines, and with the conformal tanks and ground targeting pods left at home, if I read and understand you correctly, these aircraft fitted out 100% for air to air combat would be on equal terms with the older F15C's, right?

You know, up here in Canada if the JSF buy falls through, as it's a new plan every week up here so far as the decision goes, I'm starting to think that maybe one of the newer F15 variants, especially the F15E, while not "new" so to speak, but with all the new systems and engines, might be the best option for a non stealth aircraft to replace our 140 CF18's, only about 75 of which are upgraded and still in good enough shape to fly and fight.  Having the amazing A2G capability of the F15E would fulfill our role which our F18's usually end up with, as in Libya they were responsible for 30% or so of the bombs dropped by the entire NATO air contingent, and it was a similar deal in the Balkans as well.  That said, we do a TON of flights up north as part of the commitment to the USA et al with NORAD, and with our limited tanker capability, having new F15E's fitted out like you said without the conformal and strike pods, and flying with either 4 or 8 missiles, a mix of Aim9x and Aim120 which we have a goodly inventory of, is now I think the best option should the JSF deal fall apart on us.  I'll think and read some more about it tonight.  I think as a final point for now though that so far as $$ goes, we could probably double our purchase order in terms of airframes and support equipment, which would be all kinds of good, as anyone who looks at a map would agree with so far as the NORAD patrols and interception go for those wily Russians who are getting a little more aggressive lately.

Offline eagl

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Re: F22 vs Rafale dogfight video
« Reply #38 on: June 20, 2013, 06:32:32 PM »
Awesome, thanks Eagl, a few of those answers gave me a couple more questions too, once I have some more time I'll post them up probably.

Just quickly though, new F15E's built nowadays, with the new engines, and with the conformal tanks and ground targeting pods left at home, if I read and understand you correctly, these aircraft fitted out 100% for air to air combat would be on equal terms with the older F15C's, right?

You know, up here in Canada if the JSF buy falls through, as it's a new plan every week up here so far as the decision goes, I'm starting to think that maybe one of the newer F15 variants, especially the F15E, while not "new" so to speak, but with all the new systems and engines, might be the best option for a non stealth aircraft to replace our 140 CF18's, only about 75 of which are upgraded and still in good enough shape to fly and fight.  Having the amazing A2G capability of the F15E would fulfill our role which our F18's usually end up with, as in Libya they were responsible for 30% or so of the bombs dropped by the entire NATO air contingent, and it was a similar deal in the Balkans as well.  That said, we do a TON of flights up north as part of the commitment to the USA et al with NORAD, and with our limited tanker capability, having new F15E's fitted out like you said without the conformal and strike pods, and flying with either 4 or 8 missiles, a mix of Aim9x and Aim120 which we have a goodly inventory of, is now I think the best option should the JSF deal fall apart on us.  I'll think and read some more about it tonight.  I think as a final point for now though that so far as $$ goes, we could probably double our purchase order in terms of airframes and support equipment, which would be all kinds of good, as anyone who looks at a map would agree with so far as the NORAD patrols and interception go for those wily Russians who are getting a little more aggressive lately.

A silent eagle new build would have more performance than a JSF, "almost as good" avionics and better comm interoperability with NATO, and when stealthed out with the conformal weapons bays it would supposedly have about the same radar cross section as an F-18E/F.  It would fly faster, farther, carry more weapons, and have a WSO (optional depending on customer specs!) for those really tough missions.  In the A/A role it would be superior in almost every way to an older F-15C because the newer engines and avionics would more than make up for the lighter weight of the F-15C, and it would have more than double the loadout of the JSF when configured for the A/G role.  It would lose the stealth features and ultra modern avionics of the JSF, but a major purchase would let the customer decide how much of the avionics would be old-school and how much would be newer/better.  The basic systems architecture of the F-15E allows for anything that can be plugged into a mil standard data bus, so it comes down to how much custom hardware/software you want to pay for.  As is though, I think it's the best 4th gen fighter on the planet and with the silent eagle treatment it would still be a viable aircraft.  Especially for Canada, which really needs a dedicated air defense interceptor and a day-2 (not day 0) strike fighter.  F-18E/F makes a great strike fighter, and F-15SE would totally fit the interceptor requirement for a fraction of the cost of many alternatives.  And for what many countries need, it could (in my worthless opinion) be way more effective than a JSF.

A JSF is a stealthy viper with a nifty helmet and lots of software integration to help the pilot build SA.  It isn't a bomb truck, isn't a penetrating strike aircraft, and certainly isn't an air defense interceptor.  It doesn't have the range, payload, or speed to be the best at any of those roles.  It might make a great SEAD fighter but how many of those do we really need?
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Offline eagl

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Re: F22 vs Rafale dogfight video
« Reply #39 on: June 20, 2013, 06:44:35 PM »
Plus, if all you need is an aircraft that can carry lots of missiles, I think the F-18E/F can carry 10 or 12 AMRAAMS.  It can't go very far loaded out like that but I sure as heck wouldn't want to face a defensive force armed like that.  Facing a modern AESA radar plus that many AIM-120s is freaking scary no matter what you're flying.  Even if a customer purchased the generally unused pylons for the F-15 stations 1 and 9, they could at most carry 8 AIM-120s and 2 AIM-9s since the outboard wing stations on the F-15 are only rated for an aim-9 sized weapon and pylon.

If I had my druthers, I think we would do well to cap the JSF purchase and do a long-term buy of about 1000 F-15SEs, with AESA, helmet mounted sight, full NVG compatibility, updated avionics with better sensor integration, and a better countermeasures system including active jamming of EO/IR guided weapons.  Build in some serious conformal antennas for EW like they've done with the superhornet, since its the same company anyhow and the F-15 and F-18 ought to share a bunch of DNA by now and the F-15 is big enough to be able to stuff in some neat capabilities.  Not much technological readiness risk there, since its just integrating stuff we've been doing for decades now and implementing lots of improvements that are on the back burner now but would be worth doing if included in a single new build tech package.

Oh yea...  Put in an adjustable gun elevation option so they can configure the gun to point straight ahead for A/G missions instead of canted up for A/A missions.  That up-canted gun is great for A/A but it makes strafing a cast iron BI^&H.
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Offline Gman

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Re: F22 vs Rafale dogfight video
« Reply #40 on: June 20, 2013, 09:55:10 PM »
Excellent stuff, I'm convinced that the best thing for Canada is exactly what you've said.  I was thinking about that whole day 0,1,2 thing of an air campaign, and how for a country as small as this how stupid it is and completely necessary to have an aircraft like the JSF, designed primarily to get through the air defense network on day 0.  We're usually involved, but not with that specific mission. 

A good high school friend of mine, Maj. Jason Paquin, will be Canada's test pilot for whatever we buy, and from what he's said I know he would be a lot happier with the Super Hornet or F15 variant as opposed to the JSF.  I know that the Rafale is being kicked around in Canada, and that the fact that it has been certified to fly of US Navy carriers is a plus for it, plus the performance it put in in Libya, where a Canadian General was in overall charge of the air campaign, didn't hurt its chances at all.  I just don't think that Canada would go with a non-US aircraft for such a huge purchase, as being a part of NORAD with the USA, it's much easier in terms of strategic thinking that spare parts and support is only a short drive across the longest militarily undefended border on the planet.

If we ever had to fight Russian aircraft up north as well, having those extra a2a missiles over the JSF can't be overstated.  I think that ammunition is a critical thing, and in a2a combat, I'm sure having that extra 2 or 4 missiles makes a big difference, even mentally to a pilot.  This is something I sort of read between the lines with your last post about the 10 or 12 missile equipped SH, and how much it would suck having to put your nose into an opponent capable of flipping that much bad news in your direction at once.

Great stuff again Eagl, thanks for taking the time as always.

Offline eagl

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Re: F22 vs Rafale dogfight video
« Reply #41 on: June 21, 2013, 01:02:45 AM »
I think of the non-US fighters, the Rafale seems to me to be the most attractive option.  As you say it is certified to fly off of US carriers, and it is probably one of the sexiest looking aircraft ever built, in my opinion.  After that would be the europhiter, except that it'll finally become "fully operationally capable" the day it is retired because they've slow-rolled development for the last decade so badly.

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Offline JunkyII

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Re: F22 vs Rafale dogfight video
« Reply #42 on: June 21, 2013, 01:43:18 AM »
Cool video....streaming line on His HUD....what is it? It looks like where his nose is pointed to me.
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Offline icepac

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Re: F22 vs Rafale dogfight video
« Reply #43 on: June 21, 2013, 04:43:21 AM »

Offline GScholz

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Re: F22 vs Rafale dogfight video
« Reply #44 on: June 21, 2013, 05:03:17 AM »
If we ever had to fight Russian aircraft up north as well, having those extra a2a missiles over the JSF can't be overstated.  I think that ammunition is a critical thing, and in a2a combat, I'm sure having that extra 2 or 4 missiles makes a big difference, even mentally to a pilot. 

I'm not sure how many more missiles you can get on an F-18 or F-15 over the F-35. In addition to the four internal missiles it can take 8 extra AMRAAMs on the inner four external pylons, plus a couple of Sidewinders for a total of 14 missiles. I'm not sure what they can put on the center pylon without interfering with the internal load, so possibly more than 14 missiles.

With the F-18 you have sacrificed stealth permanently. With the F-35 you have the option of having stealth by sacrificing external payload, and in either case you'll have a much greater range and cruise speed to get to those Russians over the pole.
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